D&D 4E New to 4e and considering doing a dungeoncrawl

[Skorpor]

As the title says I’m considering giving 4e a shot, I got MM1, DMG and the players guide for cheap and if possible I would like to stick to those books. I have previous DM’ing experience and I usually like to homebrew stuff but for this campaign I would like to keep things by the books. With that in mind…

Does 4e lend itself combat heavy dungeoncrawls and that it entails? (Resource management, exploration, combat etc…)

I hear that the MM1 is badly balanced, is there a good way to save it?

Are there any ready to print power cards that are legal?

Is player option-overload a problem?

Anything else to keep in mind?

 

[Kinak]

I'm not personally the biggest 4e fan, but I'll take an honest shot at these.

Does 4e lend itself combat heavy dungeoncrawls and that it entails? (Resource management, exploration, combat etc…)

Sort of. Out of the box, it does a lot better at big set piece fights rather than the slow resource depletion of dungeon crawls.

But, if you make long rests hard to come by, you can do pretty well. This can take a number of forms, from just saying "no long rests in the dungeon" to having to clear a safe zone to needing supplies that are consumed by each long rest.

I hear that the MM1 is badly balanced, is there a good way to save it?

MM3 came out with new, better math. I'm fond of the business card conversion. That should let you convert any monster in a couple seconds or just homebrew your own inspired by MM1 abilities.

Is player option-overload a problem?

In my experience, yes, to about the same degree as mid-level spellcasters in earlier editions. This is complicated a bit by sticking with the original PHB, because those classes are at the same complexity level. If you have players that want a simpler (or more complex) character than that, they don't really have any options.

The only real advice I can give here is "don't be tempted to start above first level." Including the Essentials books would also help quite a bit, if you end up having that option in the future.

Anything else to keep in mind?

You might want to do a search for Fourthcore. It doesn't sound exactly what you're looking for, but they wrestled with a lot of the same questions.

Also, there's quite a bit of errata floating around out there. I'm not sure how much is available without a subscription to D&D Insider, but I'd hope it's at least some.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Dragonblade]

Does 4e lend itself combat heavy dungeoncrawls and that it entails? (Resource management, exploration, combat etc…)

As someone who likes 4e and has a lot of experience playing and running it, I'd say no. 4e really plays best when done as a more story oriented game with big cinematic set piece battles. Its not really designed to be played as a game requiring careful hoarding of strategic resources.

Grinding through rooms of monsters and traps is playing against its strengths, IMO. And I suspect the result won't be satisfactory if thats what you want. Now that said, lots of experienced DMs have hacked it and have made it work for that style of play. But I personally don't recommend it.

I hear that the MM1 is badly balanced, is there a good way to save it?

Sure! The easiest and quickest fix is to grant every MM1 monster +5 to damage per attack/aura per tier. So a paragon tier monster does +10 damage per attack.

There are additional optimizations you might consider once you have some games under your belt.

For example, you might consider dropping defenses by 1 across the board for all monsters, or adopt the 13th Age escalation die mechanic to ease "grind" if becomes an issue for your game.

"Grind" is basically how 4e combats can reach a point where the PCs victory is assured but there are one or two last holdout monsters who just won't die because the players are rolling poorly. To be fair this can occur in any edition, but 4e monsters have more HP so its more noticable in 4e. Escalation Die fixes it well, IMO.

Other monster tweaks you can make if "stun locking" becomes an issue, is to let elites and solos save vs ongoing effects at the beginning of their turns, instead of at the end. And allow them to automatically end any effect on them in exchange for taking level appropriate improv damage.

Stun locking is something that heavily optimized controllers like Wizards can do to solo monsters. They pile up effects that the monster can't easily break out of so the monster just sits there while players dogpile on it and kill it. Its ok as an occasional tactic, but some players really like to spam the technique to the point that it gets annoying for the DM.

Are there any ready to print power cards that are legal?

Don't know. I always used DDI. Sorry.

Is player option-overload a problem?

Depends on the player. Was never an issue for me or my groups, but can be. The 4e Essentials player books (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and Heroes of the Fallen Lands) provide more stream-lined classes that have fewer options to deal with in play. For players that like to keep things simple, they should use Essential classes. Players that like more complex builds can use classes from the classic 4e PHBs.

Anything else to keep in mind?

Have fun with it. Don't be afraid to tweak the system, or ask for advice if you want to change the way a certain dynamic is working out. 4e is great RPG if cinematic video-game style bossfights are cool and something you want in your gaming. If you like more low power, gritty and resource management oriented gaming, than I'd say 4e is a poor fit. I'd check Castles and Crusades or classic AD&D for that style of play.

I've found that one size doesn't really fit all. I love Pathfinder for more fantasy sim gaming. I love 4e for my big "God of War" or "Final Fantasy" style gaming. And my new love, 13th Age for light and fast paced cinematic fantasy. I go with AD&D when I want that old school dungeon crawl.

 

[Quickleaf]

As the title says I’m considering giving 4e a shot, I got MM1, DMG and the players guide for cheap and if possible I would like to stick to those books. I have previous DM’ing experience and I usually like to homebrew stuff but for this campaign I would like to keep things by the books. With that in mind…

Good luck! Normally I suggest people start with the Essentials line, but the PHB, DMG, MM1 trio can work fine too. Bear in mind there is a lot of errata that you'll want to download from the WotC website, e.g. many wizard encounter spells now have effects on a miss.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updatesarchive

Does 4e lend itself combat heavy dungeoncrawls and that it entails? (Resource management, exploration, combat etc…)

Originally I would have said "No" emphatically because 4e combats easily take an hour to run. However, after running Dragon Mountain for 4e, experimenting with exploration-based skill challenges, and introducing fatigue house rules, I now can say "Yes, with a bit of work."

This is a huge topic, however, so if you want to get into the details I am happy to. It's just easy to get overwhelmed with advice when you're starting a new game system, so I prefer to err on the side of brevity at first.

I hear that the MM1 is badly balanced, is there a good way to save it?

Double static damage modifiers
Reduce elite/solo defenses by 2
Reduce paragon and epic elite/solo HP by ~25%
Give solos a way to shake off conditions

Those are rough changes to bring the MM1 monsters more in line with the math of the MM3 and later monsters. However, there were other design changes that are more complex than crunching numbers, for example the stun-spamming dracolich was overhauled because stun sucks as a condition since it takes players out of the action.

Are there any ready to print power cards that are legal?

Not that I know of. As a word of caution, power cards can enforce "power think" in players and contribute to them forgetting that D&D is at its core a game of improvisation and cool ideas, not a card game with a fixed suite of powers. See the DMG page 42.

Is player option-overload a problem?

Yes, it can be. Since you're limiting your game to PHB1 it shouldn't be as big of a deal for your group.
That said, options overload and condition tracking can be overwhelming for some players; in my group I've noticed the more casual players constantly forgetting modifiers so I've implemented a "if you forgot it, then no do overs" table rule. Also, we use Aiea Tools to mark conditions and pipe cleaners for zones and such.

Anything else to keep in mind?

Do yourself a favor and download a copy of my 4e DM Cheat Sheet: http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=52844&d=1348785043

In terms of skill challenges...well they are wonky in the RAW, and there are other homebrewed systems (such as Obsidian here on ENWorld) that deal eith some of the shortcomings. Check out the DMG errata on skill challenges first, particularly the revised DCs. Then, if you can get a hold of a copy, check out Star Wars Saga Edition's "Galaxies of Intrigue" which has a vastly superior treatment of skill challenges than even DMG2.

Oh, and compared to previous D&D editions, 4e fights take up more space, so assuming you are using a battlemap, plan on it being at least 10"x16", and try to avoid regularly using the 5' wide passages of older editions. Also, 4e fights are meant to emphasize the terrain more, so instead of empty square dungeon rooms, think of the Mines of Moria scene from LotR and other similar "set piece" battles.

 

[Neonchameleon]

As the title says I’m considering giving 4e a shot, I got MM1, DMG and the players guide for cheap and if possible I would like to stick to those books. I have previous DM’ing experience and I usually like to homebrew stuff but for this campaign I would like to keep things by the books. With that in mind… Does 4e lend itself combat heavy dungeoncrawls and that it entails? (Resource management, exploration, combat etc…)

Not well. 4e fights are of a "Go big or go home" style until you really get the system. You can work exploration really well once you've understood 4e - but out of the box it's a much better fit for Dragonlance or a Paizo AP than it is for White Plume Mountain. (I'd argue it's a better fit for Dragonlance than 1e was, and a better fit for Paizo APs than Pathfinder itself is).

I hear that the MM1 is badly balanced, is there a good way to save it?

Add half the monster's level to damage, and avoid all solos (and the Needlefang Drake Swarm). Solos get stunlocked too easily in the MM1.

Are there any ready to print power cards that are legal?

The character builders produce them automatically.

Is player option-overload a problem?

Can be. Make sure that hte players pick at wills that are very different and I don't find it much of one. Except choosing feats when going all in.

 

[jamesmanhattan]

Don't bother saving the MM1, Use the "Monster Vault" which replaced 80% of it. The monsters that weren't replaced, are either rarely used monsters, or they were updated in the DDI online compendium.

For a Dungeon Crawl, I highly recommend "The Halls of Undermountain" boxed set.

To address resource management, I think the designers of 4E threw that part of the game out. Instead of playing "ye old accounting game of chits and chats", like hoarding potions of healing. The only resource you have to watch is healing surges, and Daily powers. It's like an over the top action game focused on kicking the crap out of monsters. (the way I always wanted to play) but that's not for everyone. There's plenty of danger as well, I've seen plenty of TPK's.

The newly designed Solos, everything after Monster Manual 3, work completely well all alone. They really designed them well. They will kick the crap out of a party. You don't have to worry about stunlock on them at all.

Get one DDI account, you can share the login and password with multiple people. I would say it's a necessity to play, you NEED the character builder, and printed out character sheets with powers.

 

[D'karr]

To address resource management, I think the designers of 4E threw that part of the game out. Instead of playing "ye old accounting game of chits and chats", like hoarding potions of healing. The only resource you have to watch is healing surges, and Daily powers. It's like an over the top action game focused on kicking the crap out of monsters. (the way I always wanted to play) but that's not for everyone. There's plenty of danger as well, I've seen plenty of TPK's.

I kind of agree on this part. The good thing is that if you want to spend time doing the accounting game you can. Count your arrows, count your potions, count your bolts, count the shots, etc., but it is not a NEEDED element of the game. So if an encounter, or adventure should have the accounting (you are slaves and only have what you just found as equipment) you can do that. But for most situations the accounting is really irrelevant so don't focus on it unless absolutely needed.

I also agree that Halls of Undermountain serves well as a "dungeon crawl" but it really works best when the party keeps going back to Waterdeep to interact with the "mission givers". We've had fun with it.

For a straight "dungeon crawl" I would recommend some tweaks to the system my friend [MENTION=38140]Frylock[/MENTION] wrote. It takes the base 4e system, which is very good for set-piece encounters and turns it on its head to do "dungeon crawls". We have been playing some of the classic adventures with it, and it works rather well.

 

[Dragonblade]

Get one DDI account, you can share the login and password with multiple people. I would say it's a necessity to play, you NEED the character builder, and printed out character sheets with powers.

While its extremely helpful, I don't think its needed. I always made my 4e PCs by hand, by looking through the books and using notebook paper to write down my PC and abilities. I've found for new players that DDI can be option overload.

 

[Storminator]

I ran a very good dungeon crawl, but I limited the scope to play to 4e strengths. I had the PCs gather intel from various spies and factions, and mapped out about 2/3 of the dungeon on my battle mat before the crawl started. I gave them some clues about the state of things, and told the players there would be no extended rests. Short rests allowed, but not extended. I also gave each player 2 minions to control. An NPC tagged along, and he raised the dead minions as minion zombies, which could not be raised again. I believe exactly one minion survived the crawl.

PS

 

[Herschel]

The Dungeon Crawl works best if you run it like it would happen in "the real world" rather than how modules portrayed them. In other words, you don't stop to fight a mook in "every" room, instead you run it as a skill challenge to eliminate room-by-room, mook-by-mook (make 'em minions if you want to make attack rolls), until they alert the "complex". Then, those that would be alerted actually do the smart thing and combine their forces in a defensible location rather than wait by themselves in their repective rooms to be wiped out systematically.