New Tunnels & Trolls first look at UK Games Expo.

[Wofano Wotanto]

I'll have to investigate further. The elegance of the classic saving roll mechanic was how all encompassing it was and how easy it was to explain and understand. It worked well, and it leaned in to the level mechanic of advancing stats to improve your odds of success. For me at least, seeing a module call for a "L2SR vs. Luck" is pure T&T.

Again, this is an Alpha and we have no idea what advancement looks like. It better include Attribute improvement, but how fast it is we can't even guess yet. Sheer Luck is a Stat (something you spend for effects and goes up and down during play) in Alpha, but the format notation for a Standard Roll (the functional equivalent of a saving roll in Classic T&T - they even kept the same SR abbreviation) would be "Attribute (TN)" where a specific Attribute will replace Luck and the TN (probably 2, but conversion is just guesswork) replaces the level-based L2SR notation. What you'd use in place of Luck would probably depend on what the threat/task is, and I could see a player arguing for the use of of adifferent one than initially called for. For ex, a simple covered pit trap might be Dex (2) SR assuming you're going to avoid falling in by leaping clear, but a player might ask (beg) to use Will (your awareness and attunement to the environment Attribute) instead as they spot the trap just in time to avoid it, or possibly Intelligence as they discern subtle differences between the solid stone around the pit and its camouflage.

Taking a more closely matching example, forcing a stuck door open might be a L1SR vs. Strength in Classic or a Str (1) SR in Alpha. They're both pretty easy even for beginners with middling strength, a cakewalk for anyone really strong, but they might slow a group down enough through failure to lead to an ambush or getting caught (or evaded0 in a pursuit.

Whether Rebellion will get level scaling right or not I can't even guess, but the currently narrow TN and Attribute ranges aren't a great start.

OTOH, you couldn't throw a L15SR vs. Anything at 1st level characters in Classic with hope of success either, which would be a rough equivalent to TN5 in Alpha.

 

[aramis erak]

I'll have to investigate further. The elegance of the classic saving roll mechanic was how all encompassing it was and how easy it was to explain and understand. It worked well, and it leaned in to the level mechanic of advancing stats to improve your odds of success. For me at least, seeing a module call for a "L2SR vs. Luck" is pure T&T.

the new edition uses one unified mechanic... and it's just as easy to call for a level 2 SR on Luck in this version... but noting that luck isn't scaled the same as the others. (typical is going to be 3, but it can range from 1 to 7 for starting PC, unlike core atts, which are 2-4)...

The lack of infinite open end is, IMO, an improvement. It at least makes the odds easier to work.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Again, this is an Alpha and we have no idea what advancement looks like. It better include Attribute improvement, but how fast it is we can't even guess yet. Sheer Luck is a Stat (something you spend for effects and goes up and down during play) in Alpha, but the format notation for a Standard Roll (the functional equivalent of a saving roll in Classic T&T - they even kept the same SR abbreviation) would be "Attribute (TN)" where a specific Attribute will replace Luck and the TN (probably 2, but conversion is just guesswork) replaces the level-based L2SR notation. What you'd use in place of Luck would probably depend on what the threat/task is, and I could see a player arguing for the use of of adifferent one than initially called for. For ex, a simple covered pit trap might be Dex (2) SR assuming you're going to avoid falling in by leaping clear, but a player might ask (beg) to use Will (your awareness and attunement to the environment Attribute) instead as they spot the trap just in time to avoid it, or possibly Intelligence as they discern subtle differences between the solid stone around the pit and its camouflage.

Taking a more closely matching example, forcing a stuck door open might be a L1SR vs. Strength in Classic or a Str (1) SR in Alpha. They're both pretty easy even for beginners with middling strength, a cakewalk for anyone really strong, but they might slow a group down enough through failure to lead to an ambush or getting caught (or evaded0 in a pursuit.

Whether Rebellion will get level scaling right or not I can't even guess, but the currently narrow TN and Attribute ranges aren't a great start.

OTOH, you couldn't throw a L15SR vs. Anything at 1st level characters in Classic with hope of success either, which would be a rough equivalent to TN5 in Alpha.

This kind of feels like change for its own sake, though.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

the new edition uses one unified mechanic... and it's just as easy to call for a level 2 SR on Luck in this version... but noting that luck isn't scaled the same as the others. (typical is going to be 3, but it can range from 1 to 7 for starting PC, unlike core atts, which are 2-4)...

The lack of infinite open end is, IMO, an improvement. It at least makes the odds easier to work.

Infinite open-ended saves made sense under the way 5th edition (and earlier) allowed for leveling up. Remember, it was possible with a bit of time to have a warrior with a STR of 200 if you set about doing it. The cool thing about saves was a snarky GM could give the STR 200 dude a Level 40 Save Vs. STR if you really wanted to....but even a 200 STR warrior (hey, I knew of at least one guy with a 200 STR warrior after a run or two through certain solo modules) had a chance of failing a level 1 save if you rolled low enough...a 2 or 3 on the saving roll were always a failure iirc.

T&T wasn't perfect, ever, but its imperfections and curious logic are what made it so fun for most everyone I knew who liked it. A polished and balanced system is nice, but maybe not T&T.

 

[aramis erak]

Infinite open-ended saves made sense under the way 5th edition (and earlier) allowed for leveling up. Remember, it was possible with a bit of time to have a warrior with a STR of 200 if you set about doing it. The cool thing about saves was a snarky GM could give the STR 200 dude a Level 40 Save Vs. STR if you really wanted to....but even a 200 STR warrior (hey, I knew of at least one guy with a 200 STR warrior after a run or two through certain solo modules) had a chance of failing a level 1 save if you rolled low enough...a 2 or 3 on the saving roll were always a failure iirc.

T&T wasn't perfect, ever, but its imperfections and curious logic are what made it so fun for most everyone I knew who liked it. A polished and balanced system is nice, but maybe not T&T.

It retains the long odds chance with exceptional success...

 

[Some Dude]

The most baffling thing about this is that attaching the T&T name is unlikely to have much cachet with any potential young, new fans, and drastically changing the rules isn't likely to attract long-time players of a game that's been backwards compatible for 50 years.

I just don't understand looking at a game with a 50-year history of compatibility across editions, that has a hard core of dedicated fans who love it the way it is (with or without homebrewing), and thinking, "You know what this needs? Entirely new rules."

Like I said, I wish Rebellion well with this, but I'm not seeing much here that is for me.

Some rudimentary conversion rules are being posted on Rebellion Unplugged's Discord, which is nice. I get the impression they're more geared towards using the new system to run old adventures, but they're simple and look like they could be used effortlessly for the reverse.

 

[aramis erak]

Got it to table last night.
Basically, the threat system dominates combat. It's way more important than the character's attributes.

Did it feel like T&T? Yes. Far more so than 7 Alt, and on par with Hogscape's "Mythical Sixth", and very close to the Computer Game.
Complete with bombing out key rolls on both sides.

I'd like to see threat effect reduced severely on dice pools - say, maybe just 1-2 dice for whichever has lower threat in an exchange. Not removing it, but limiting to just a die or two and target priority.

The exceptional success being a different process from the dramatic was an issue.

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

Basically, the threat system dominates combat. It's way more important than the character's attributes.

Yep. Strength and MR contribute far less than accumulated Threat after only a round or two, and unless the players are lackwits they'll have monsters pushed onto Defend actions in short order so they're only a menace during the players' strikes - or when they're elites. Don't miss that key bit about being able to strike multiple enemies with range, complete with emphasis that GMs should be generous about what's in range. If you can survive the combat, dumping Threat on multiple foes while taking only one yourself can swing a fight. You're shafted in a similar fashion when outnumbered (especially by non-Mob X foes) who strike one after another and drown you in Threat. Oh, and short swords are incredibly strong thanks to Harass.

That fact that Shoot actions never benefit from Threat offensively makes them extremely weak compared to Strikes.

I'd like to see threat effect reduced severely on dice pools - say, maybe just 1-2 dice for whichever has lower threat in an exchange. Not removing it, but limiting to just a die or two and target priority.

I'm not sure how I'd change things, but threat either accumulates too fast or it's too hard to remove once it starts accumulating. Sneak is a joke, although getting Wounded can decide a fight right there if it peels (say) 8 threat off a PC. I fully expect to see monsters with Wounds (multiple, even) in the future. You obviously can't just keep raising MR forever, but Wounds extend durability for Big Bads.

One idea that might work would be having a PC or monster who lands a killing blow or a Wound immediately remove Threat = the amount on the target. That would effectively put a bounty on high-threat targets and make finishing them off much more appealing. I already note a tendency to bury monsters under 2-3 times their MR in threat and ignore them flopping around on Defend to deal with greater problems.

The exceptional success being a different process from the dramatic was an issue.

Surprised to hear that. I've yet to see either fluke effect trigger off anything but an initial dice pool, where they have equal odds of occurring - or slightly skewed toward crit hits actually, since any Luck rerolls will be fishing for them. The only thing the fumble chance does IME is restrict which explosion pools you're willing to roll outside if the most desperate circumstances. The math on losing all your hits to a fumble versus maybe gaining another few hits from risky explosions almost never supports being a gambler unless the other option is to die right now.