New Tunnels & Trolls first look at UK Games Expo.

I'm interested in seeing what they do here but as one of those old guard I'm going to brace myself for thus being a "T&T in name only" scenario. No Khazan, no Lerot'rah, no Fang? Hmmm. As for dice pool combat I published an entire expansion to the game in 1986 to bake in more developed combat options so I'm open to whatever they try here.
 

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I'm interested in seeing what they do here but as one of those old guard I'm going to brace myself for thus being a "T&T in name only" scenario. No Khazan, no Lerot'rah, no Fang? Hmmm. As for dice pool combat I published an entire expansion to the game in 1986 to bake in more developed combat options so I'm open to whatever they try here.
I'd love to see what you came up with, is it for sale anywhere?

I'm definitely in the "this is T&T in name only" camp. I respect the designers, and I hope this works out for them. Hope they sell a million. It isn't T&T, to me. I know I sound like a crusty old grog and I hate that, but it is what it is.

On an initial read-through, it's great at what it is, but what it is is not T&T, at least not to me.

I'm on the fence about backing it still, because I want to ensure that Rebellion have the money and inclination to support "legacy" T&T, as they've pledged to do. But this doesn't really appeal to me. Too generic overall, too fiddly in some spots, too random in others. You don't even get to pick your character's Motto? Wack. I like random chargen, prefer it even. But there's a limit.

To me, T&T's main selling points are whimsy, simplicity, and flexibility. And while there are neat things here (the Statuses in particular look like they could be fun), it seems to lack these things, at least to any degree that would make it T&T-like.

I didn't hate the idea of success-based Combat rolls on the face of it. Combat balance isn't T&T's strong suit. And for all the things T&T explained from the outset that "that other game" didn't, no edition has taught GMs how to properly balance combats (hint: it ain't Levels or even Adds). It can be done, and it isn't difficult, but it isn't intuitive, either. Figuring it out has greatly increased my appreciation for T&T, and overall I've learned to stop worrying and love the bucket of dice. But, as I said, success-based combats could have been an improvement. Instead, it's one of many changes so drastic that this game is almost unrecognizable as T&T, save for a couple of concessions.

The Saving Roll system was the one part of T&T that even many of the game's detractors praised, and its complete removal was a massive misstep, IMO.

I'm also one of the oddballs who liked Trollworld, even though I know it wasn't really intended to be the default setting (the "Phoenix Cosmic Circle" intended for folks to make their own). I really did the T&T vibe, or as Ken St. Andre once said, "Lord of the Rings, as it would have been done by Marvel Comics in the 1974...", and I have a hard time with any T&T that isn't that.

Seeing as this is an alpha, it may change. I'll keep an open mind. And I want to be clear: I'm not saying this is a bad RPG. It isn't. I'm just not convinced it's a good T&T.

I'm also not willing to follow Ken to Zimrala, as he's basically become a living email forwarded from grandma. So, I guess I'm banished to the land of older editions. Which is fine. I have all the older T&T I'll ever need (not that it'll keep me from buying more).
 

I like random chargen, prefer it even. But there's a limit.
The third paragraph of the Alpha doc warns you flat out that this is a crippled placeholder of a char gen system that relies on random rolls, while the full version will be based on choices, include more kin, much more equipment, and long lists of spells (and presumably crafts) and monsters.

So yeah, that part of the system is terrible (it's like making disposable funnel-fodder for DCC - maybe worse), but you might as well ignore it and just choose what you want at each step.
The Saving Roll system was the one part of T&T that even many of the game's detractors praised, and its complete removal was a massive misstep, IMO.
They haven't been removed, although they have been radically altered. What Ken's game called saving rolls were sometimes actual saves, but they were also the formalized mechanic for trying to do pretty much anything outside of fighting or casting spells, and even there they were used for attempting creative tricks. In Alpha, that's what Standard Rolls are. Try to do something, get a TN from the GM, roll to see if you made it. Same result as old saves, different name and math.

What you can certainly be concerned about is whether that narrow 1-5 TN range is broad enough, and how (or even if) the system will handle level scaling, which was baked into the old saves. I know it worries me, especially with your very low 2-4 die attribute pools - but this is an Alpha, we have no idea about advancement at all, and the full version will hopefully be much more comprehensive.
Seeing as this is an alpha, it may change.
That may be the most important thing to keep in mind overall. I doubt any of this is set in stone yet.

That said, I do agree with your assessment - this is not Ken's T&T, and not interested in trying to be. It's even reasonable to wonder why they went to the trouble of using the name, given that I haven't seen a more radical shift in mechanics between versions of a game since D&D 3/3.5 turned into 4e.

But I liked 4e quite a lot, so sometimes radical change can be good fun.
 



The beta of this has been released, and is in the hands of people who signed up.
Alpha, not Beta.

And I can see the lineage; it's lineage is through the T&T CRPG as much as the TT... when we see advancement, I suspect a 7/7.5/D mode.

I'm not surprised at all by the switch to a count-successes model; given that combat rolls can easily hit 6d, at which point expected successes are just over 3.

The issue I see before play is that the odds of setback (fumble) increase with ability; if that's not fixed after playtest, I'll house rule it. But that's the only houserule I can forsee for me.

I met T&T in about 1984/'85, thanks to Peter (of Boscos), back in HS, using 5th. I adopted 5.5 when it came out in 2005, tried 7th and 7.5, and 7 alt, like deluxe...

But I still prefer 5.5 to 7/7.5/D and to 5.0.
I've never run 1/2/3/4th but have 1st and 4th in rerelease PDF.

it's fair to say I'm part of the old guard...
But I see promise in this alpha.
I see several issues: no faeries, no leprechauns... at least not yet.
And the rolling for Kin, Path, motto: those should be pick or roll
The above mentioned setback issue.
As for no Khazan/Lerot'rah/Fang/etc... they were never mentioned in core until 2005, and that only in an appendix.

As for Trollworld: as a setting, it had maps on the early editions, but no prose to go with. Just the races list and two continents in vague maps.
5.0 didn't even have the maps.
Until 2005, the setting had nothing but maps in core rules, and then it had a timeline and some currency discussion.
It wasn't until 2017 that there was prose in a core rulebook about the setting.
The setting really first comes together in a useful form in 1990, with the videogame, T&T: Crusaders of Khazan. I've played it. It's interesting, but it's divergent from the core TT Game combat mechanics.

So, unless you were into the solo adventures, or hanging out with Rick, Ken, Steve, Liz, and/or Bear, you probably weren't using the canonical adventures. My own campaigns never used the official setting; only my solo play. And we don't know that the "gods of Khazan" won't show up in T&T:ANA in the beta nor release.

Hoping to get it to table this week.
 

Over the Edge 3E is one of my top five all-time favorite RPGs.
My sole complaint with 3e is with the solitary supplement, which was bafflingly printed in pale gray on white. It's very close to unreadable for me under normal lighting because of that choice. Which is a real shame, because the content itself is great.
I'm not surprised at all by the switch to a count-successes model; given that combat rolls can easily hit 6d, at which point expected successes are just over 3.
Die pools rapidly grow far larger than that in melee, and low double-digit pools are not uncommon. And that's not even considering possibly changes through the mystery advancement system, which will likely buff pools through Attribute increases and other means. ATM you only see those kind of numbers in melee, and it's entirely due to threat.
The issue I see before play is that the odds of setback (fumble) increase with ability; if that's not fixed after playtest, I'll house rule it. But that's the only houserule I can forsee for me.
In practical terms, this never matters unless you invite it to. Your odds of rolling a crit hit or crit fail in your initial pool (which is always be the largest one in Alpha) are identical, which is fair enough - and if/when they clarify which takes precedence if you roll both in a die with 6+ dice in it, I suspect trip-6 will win out and make crit fails even more rare. Also, if you're willing to use luck to reroll in a given pool, that further skews the odds toward crit hits, because you're going to be re-rolling any 1s looking for hits, and some of those hits will be sixes, possibly completing a triple if you had other sixes showing.

Note that Rebellion also needs to clarify what happens when two crit hits are rolled, since the (hits = TN+1) result will become an infinite loop unless there's a defined processing order between attacker and defender.

The "look at all your ones in any pool" thing you're talking about will literally never trigger a crit fail if you play safely and don't gamble. It's purely a temptation for risk-takers, a trap for people who are bad at math, or a desperation move for times when the current situation will kill you right there and then. Consider - let's say you have a big fat 10-die pool thanks to accumulated threat on multiple enemies, and your intial roll looks like this:

1 1 2 3 4 4 4 5 6 6

A little lucky but not amazingly so. You start with two potential explosion pools, one with a single die (from the 6 6) and one with two dice (from the 4 4 4). Assuming you have just one luck you're willing to spend, what do you do? You want to be able to roll some explosion dice, but anything risks a crit fail if you roll a third 1, and that would be disastrous.

So you reroll one of those 1 results now, while you still can. If it lands on a 1 again, just give up and be happy with your six hits. Rolling any explosion dice at all is not worth the 1-in-6 chance per die of losing everything by rolling a third 1.

If you re-rolled into a 2 or 3 you at least got rid of one of those 1 results, and can now safely roll your single-die explosion pool. If that comes up 1, stop. If you rolled anything else and you want to take a fairly safe gamble (which I wouldn't, because I'm really conservative) you could then risk rolling your two-die pool and hope you don't get a double 1 to crit fail - and if you roll a double hit of any kind you'll be safe to roll the single-die explosion that new double generated. It's really pretty safe to take that two-die explosion roll - but you're risking taking a crit fail when you didn't need to and you knew it.

If your initial reroll of a 1 comes up a 4 or 5 you now have an extra explosion die, either by itself from the (new) double 5, or a three-die explosion from what are now quad 4 results. The quad result is by far the most dangerous (and tempting) outcome since you could roll two or more 1 results for a crit fail, but you could also fluke into a crit success. Before you dwell on it, roll that safe single-die explosion from the 6 6 pairing. If that comes up a 1, just stop. If not, ponder the risk of getting two 1 results in 3d6 versus more hits or even a crit. I wouldn't take it myself outside of a desperate situation. Alternately, If you re-rolled into a 5, you now have 1 2 3 4 4 4 5 5 6 6 to work with. Either double is a safe extra die. If that doesn't come up 1, the other double is equally safe. And after that, if you're still at a single 1 showing back in your initial pool, then you can risk 3d6 hoping not to roll double 1 in the result and assess the safety of any explosion that might result from that 3d6.

The only point in the whole process where the risk of a crit fail exceeds that of a crit success is if you take a voluntary risk knowing the chances.

And of course if that one re-rolled 1 bounced into a third 6, you have a crit hit and just stop, scoring either 10 hits or (TN+1), whichever is higher. No mucking about with explosions then.

Also worth noting that while that takes a ton of page real estate to type out, I can explain with a set of dice for the example in about a minute, and once you grok how to safely use explosion pools it becomes automatic very quickly. Things only slow down when you have luck to burn, because once you've past a given pool (whether initial or each explosion one-by-one) you cannot go back to an older one, so it's a "speak now or forever accept that roll" situation.
 

The Saving Roll system was the one part of T&T that even many of the game's detractors praised, and its complete removal was a massive misstep, IMO.
The T&T Saving Roll is one of the most inventive and brilliant early game mechanics ever devised. If it was removed from this new edition, then I am not interested in whatever they are coming up with....it's like Alternity all over again.
 

The T&T Saving Roll is one of the most inventive and brilliant early game mechanics ever devised. If it was removed from this new edition, then I am not interested in whatever they are coming up with....it's like Alternity all over again.
To quote myself from about five posts up:
They haven't been removed, although they have been radically altered. What Ken's game called saving rolls were sometimes actual saves, but they were also the formalized mechanic for trying to do pretty much anything outside of fighting or casting spells, and even there they were used for attempting creative tricks. In Alpha, that's what Standard Rolls are. Try to do something, get a TN from the GM, roll to see if you made it. Same result as old saves, different name and math.

What you can certainly be concerned about is whether that narrow 1-5 TN range is broad enough, and how (or even if) the system will handle level scaling, which was baked into the old saves. I know it worries me, especially with your very low 2-4 die attribute pools - but this is an Alpha, we have no idea about advancement at all, and the full version will hopefully be much more comprehensive.
So not removed, changed. Too early to say whether that's for better or worse. Alpha version is fine within itself, but may not scale well when we see the full version.

If you're dead set on Ken's T&T with no changes the Alpha document rightly points out that Rebellion will happily sell you that version and even plan to provide further new material if sales justify it.
 

To quote myself from about five posts up:

So not removed, changed. Too early to say whether that's for better or worse. Alpha version is fine within itself, but may not scale well when we see the full version.

If you're dead set on Ken's T&T with no changes the Alpha document rightly points out that Rebellion will happily sell you that version and even plan to provide further new material if sales justify it.
I'll have to investigate further. The elegance of the classic saving roll mechanic was how all encompassing it was and how easy it was to explain and understand. It worked well, and it leaned in to the level mechanic of advancing stats to improve your odds of success. For me at least, seeing a module call for a "L2SR vs. Luck" is pure T&T.
 

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