D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

Chaosmancer

Legend
That’s a 5th level combo, versus 2nd. And it takes concentration. And it doesn’t triple your hp.

I’m in the camp (having watched a Druid optimizer in play), that moon druids:

1) are stupidly broken at 2nd level.
2) top tier at 3-4
3) solid at 5th.
4) balanced at 6th

And I think that is really the thing, because if you nerf them too hard for those first few levels, then they are worthless for 3/4 of their design. (everything after 5th)

I do actually wonder if part of this also came with the initial design idea that everyone would start at level 3, instead of level 1. It always does feel like it takes a bit too long to get to level 5 after all.
 

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Enrahim2

Adventurer
I hope you're right, but now I'm worried those were just flukes rather than the result of skilled design.
It can be added that in this case everyone in this thread having tried to come up with a concrete alternative seem to not really have been able to come up with something many have been happy about. It might be that the druid is a problem that requires more than merrely skilled design to gracefully tackle..

If you are given a mandate to simplify, and there is no good solution, I would say they have done a very decent job.. it is tricky to see how they could  simplify it even more :p
 

No, but the new wild shape doesn't work like that either. My point is the 5e druids could easily have +34 THP AND AC 16 at 3rd level. Low AC is a choice, not a balancing factor.
At the low, low cost of their second level spell slot in two combats, max? There are way better things to concentrate on.
 


Remathilis

Legend
At the low, low cost of their second level spell slot in two combats, max? There are way better things to concentrate on.
You are talking about opportunity cost, which is not the same as a balancing factor. The claim is a druid needs 35 temporary HP because it's AC is tosh. But its AC does not need to be tosh, you have elected to choose a different buff/ability instead. You can have both a decent AC and wild shape, which negates the argument the excessive amount of temp hp is needed to balance out the low AC.

Barkskin was mentioned because it is in the druid's toolkit and was designed to override a wild shape's natural AC with 16. (The way they did it was a confusing mess, but that was the intent). You can use other magics like Mage Armor as an alternative. I just want to dispel the notion that "I needed the additional HP of a 5th level fighter because my AC is abysmal and there is nothing I can do about it!"
 

mellored

Legend
Barkskin was mentioned because it is in the druid's toolkit and was designed to override a wild shape's natural AC with 16.
Barkskin was changed last packet to give temporary hit point.
Which wouldn't stack with THP.

But both versions have concentration, meaning you would quickly lose it because you're getting hit a lot.
"I needed the additional HP of a 5th level fighter because my AC is abysmal and there is nothing I can do about it!"
I need the half the THP of a same level fighter because the AC is abysmal.
Which is roughly the same THP that a cleric can heal with their channel divinity.

Keep in mind, your still doing less damage than a sword and board fighter. (And no one is arguing for more damage).
 

Remathilis

Legend
Barkskin was changed last packet to give temporary hit point.
Which wouldn't stack with THP.

But both versions have concentration, meaning you would quickly lose it because you're getting hit a lot.

I need the half the THP of a same level fighter because the AC is abysmal.
Which is roughly the same THP that a cleric can heal with their channel divinity.

Keep in mind, your still doing less damage than a sword and board fighter. (And no one is arguing for more damage).

Yes, barkskin was changed to give temp hp when wild shape was changed to not give it. It's almost like both those changes were intentional and not done in a vacuum...

I do agree it could be better tuned, but I also feel "equal to the original version" is not where I want to end up again either.
 


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