D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

Clint_L

Hero
Yes, barkskin was changed to give temp hp when wild shape was changed to not give it. It's almost like both those changes were intentional and not done in a vacuum...

I do agree it could be better tuned, but I also feel "equal to the original version" is not where I want to end up again either.
Has anyone argued for that? I'm not sure who you are arguing with. Hasn't everyone agreed that moon druids need to be better tuned, especially from levels 2-4, but that does not mean throw the baby out with the bathwater?

I have made that case repeatedly. With math, even! Here's something I posted 6 pages ago:

"Giant Hyena has 45 HP. Dire Wolf has 37. Giant Spider has 26 HP but a nasty poison attack and web, plus climbing. Deinonychus makes 3 attacks plus can knock its target prone and get a 4th.

CR 1 monsters are too powerful for the moon druid to be able to use at low levels, IMO."
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Barkskin was changed last packet to give temporary hit point.
Which wouldn't stack with THP.

But both versions have concentration, meaning you would quickly lose it because you're getting hit a lot.

I need the half the THP of a same level fighter because the AC is abysmal.
Which is roughly the same THP that a cleric can heal with their channel divinity.

Keep in mind, your still doing less damage than a sword and board fighter. (And no one is arguing for more damage).

Also, I'm not a fan of requiring a spell tax to balance the features. If something is only good if you pick the correct spell and use it at the correct time, then it isn't really good.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Hasn't everyone agreed that moon druids need to be better tuned, especially from levels 2-4, but that does not mean throw the baby out with the bathwater?

/raises_hand

I strongly believe that generic templating is the way to go for D&D. Not that it's a better design in general, but rather that it meets a a design objective for D&D, which is to mitigate system mastery. And I believe templating does that.

Unless they go back and make all beasts adhere to similar templates, and ensure they continue to do so going forward (which would accomplish the same objective in a roundabout way) there will always be a "best" available beast at any level or CR.

Does that mean that this first pass at templates is perfect? Or even great? No.
 

Clint_L

Hero
I agree; further, think that as soon as you add any significant level of complexity there will always be a "best," whether you do that with a template that adds different options or with different creatures. But "best" is subjective and contextual; the current problem is that "best" generally means "best in combat," which all else being equal typically means a brown bear because of its balance of offence and HP.

So one thing you could do with a template is get closer to standardizeing "best" in terms of combat (i.e. by maybe having a tanky form and fighty form) and then add some other options that players can tank on or take instead, depending on the situation. Folks have been making some great suggestions along those lines.

One thing that I hope the rules specify is that the druid is not simply taking some generic form when they transform, so that each template comes with a list of typical creatures that suit it, and the player is encouraged to be specific (i.e. not "I am transforming into my tanky form," but "I am transforming into an angry moose so I can tank this fight!").
 

One hard miss following 8 to 10 decent hits does not make me immediately think that they had 8 to 10 flukes in a row.
Rational minds can differ, but I view most of the other releases as solidly "meh" bordering on bad. This is just the first one that made me think that One D&D is going to be trash, instead of just a boring lateral move. I don't know how this ever made it into live testing.

As a Druid main, it feels to me a lot like it might feel to a Warlock main if they just removed all the invocations involving Eldritch Blast, and removed Hexblade armor proficiencies entirely. Imagine if then you had a bunch of people on the forums defending these changes as "the right direction" because there are all sorts of "busted" builds that use both of these things. I suspect most Warlock players would be pretty pissed that as a correction to real but easily corrected problems their class got kneecapped and, as one of the less popular classes (it's not, but imagine it was), most people seemed fine with leaving the class in a broken and crippled form.

One could make a pretty good case that a Warlock can technically function without those features. You still have lots of great spells, you still get level nine spells, and really you get more spells than everyone else and here let me show you some white room math to project the absolute maximum amount of spell slots you're going to ever get in an adventuring day as a reason to justify shanking a core feature.
And Hexblade? Casters shouldn't get armor, you aren't a martial!

If this seems a bit like a straw man and hyperbole, it's actually not. That's exactly the sort of responses Druids have been getting. People are acting like downgrading your armor for a barely functional melee attack and using your own hit points is an "alright" direction, and the examples above are all things that have actually been said to me (with Warlock stuff subbed in). The only difference is that the great minds at WotC haven't put Warlocks on the chopping block. At least not yet.
 

mellored

Legend
So back to my list

I am actually rather liking the bonus action new unarmed attack. That's actually 4 options in one. And the new grapple is close to the old restrained, so that's probably close enough to swallow.
-push
-prone
-grapple
-small damage bump

So that just leaves 3 options, and the elemental stuff.

-reach
-poison
-charge

-elemental damage
-elemental resistance

So to try something a bit different...

1: same template, but reduce the damage to 1d4+Wis
You also gain temporary hit points equal to 5* your druid level.

5: beast spell
Multi-attack

7: You can choose either a climb speed, or a swim speed.

9: you can choose a fly speed, or spider climb.

11: While you have temporary hit points from wild shape, you do not need to make concentration checks when damaged.

13: alternating forms.

15: increase damage die to 1d8
as a reaction, when you are about to take damage, you can wild shape. You gain the temporary hit points before taking damage.

17: always regenerate 1 HP per round.


Moon druid
3: bonus action unarmed attack

6: choose one of the following
-reach
-dash as a bonus action
-poison condition as a bonus action immediately after you hit, Fort save.

10: elemental resistance and +1d4 elemental damage. Increasing to 1d8 at level 15.

14: as an action, you can change your wild shape in to new form without expending another wild shape. Gain temporary hit points equal to your druid level


Blossom druid
3: you can wild shape into a tree. Immobilized, and a 10' reach.
You are under the effects of bark skin cast at your highest level.
When you wild shape, roll 2d4+your druid level, you can heal that much to any ally within 10' of you.

6: allies within 10' of you gain temporary hit points equal to your druid level modifier at the start of each turn.

...?
 
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Olrox17

Hero
I didn’t read the whole thread, so excuse me if I’m repeating something that was already said.

The 5e moon Druid needed a fix, and standard wild shape templates can fix both their excessive toughness layered on top of a full spellcasting class, and the excessive complexity of players using monster stats.

But we also want moon druids to have some decent melee staying power, right?
Here's my proposal: allow moon druids to spend a spell slot when using wild shape, so they get temp hp equal to the spell slot spent times 10, or possibly 15 at higher levels. Should be enough of a buffer to make them feel like they belong in melee, but at a cost. A cost they are well equipped to pay, being full casters.

Just like a paladin has to pay a spell slot price to feel like a damage dealer, so the moon druid would have to pay a spell tax to be real tough.
 
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I didn’t read the whole thread, so excuse me if I’m repeating something that was already said.

The 5e moon Druid needed a fix, and standard wild shape templates can fix both their excessive toughness layered on top of a full spellcasting class, and the excessive complexity of players using monster stats.

But we also want moon druids to have some decent melee staying power, right?
Here's my proposal: allow moon druids to spend a spell slot when using wild shape, so they get temp hp equal to the spell slot spent times 10, or possibly 15 at higher levels. Should be enough of a buffer to make them feel like they belong in melee, but at a cost. A cost they are well equipped to pay, being full casters.

Just like a paladin has to pay a spell slot price to feel like a damage dealer, so the moon druid would have to pay a spell tax to be real tough.

The problem with that is that it's just a wildly inefficient use of a spell. Let's say you use a level 2 slot at level 4. You give yourself 20 temporary hp. Not a bad deal, right? Wrong, sadly. That second level spell slot could also have been a summoned beast, which would have 30 hit points, pack tactics, allow you to stay at a safe range and do your own thing, and you comboed with the summon are going to way out damage you as a beast in melee. I'm talking about a Tasha summon, the ones people tend to agree are pretty well-balanced.

I suppose I'll grant they aren't mutually exclusive, you could do both, for extra chonk on the field, but I think even adding this, the current iteration of Wild Shape is absolute garbage.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The problem with that is that it's just a wildly inefficient use of a spell. Let's say you use a level 2 slot at level 4. You give yourself 20 temporary hp. Not a bad deal, right? Wrong, sadly. That second level spell slot could also have been a summoned beast, which would have 30 hit points, pack tactics, allow you to stay at a safe range and do your own thing, and you comboed with the summon are going to way out damage you as a beast in melee. I'm talking about a Tasha summon, the ones people tend to agree are pretty well-balanced.

I suppose I'll grant they aren't mutually exclusive, you could do both, for extra chonk on the field, but I think even adding this, the current iteration of Wild Shape is absolute garbage.
It's a way better use of a spell slot than to heal hit points though.

Also, the fact that Druids can do do things like summon and then wild shape into a beefy combat form is part of the reason a balance patch is on the table, innit?
 

The problem with that is that it's just a wildly inefficient use of a spell. Let's say you use a level 2 slot at level 4. You give yourself 20 temporary hp. Not a bad deal, right? Wrong, sadly. That second level spell slot could also have been a summoned beast, which would have 30 hit points, pack tactics, allow you to stay at a safe range and do your own thing, and you comboed with the summon are going to way out damage you as a beast in melee. I'm talking about a Tasha summon, the ones people tend to agree are pretty well-balanced.

I suppose I'll grant they aren't mutually exclusive, you could do both, for extra chonk on the field, but I think even adding this, the current iteration of Wild Shape is absolute garbage.

The only correct part of that post is the first half sentence of your second paragraph.

Paladins use a 2nd level spell slot to deal an additional 3d8 damage, which averages to 13.5 extra damage. Even on a crit, that barely tops 20 extra hp. And that as a half caster with more precious spell slots. And noone evercomplained about that. Why? Because it has no action cost. A way to enhance your attack without the cost of an action or concentration.
So as a moon druid, you summon a beast which costs 1 action and concentration, and then on top of that, you turn into an animal with extra 20 THP and extra movespeed as a bonus action, and a decent melee attack. I call that a very efficent way of spending two second level spell slots and your available actions.
 

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