D&D 5E Next session a character might die. Am I being a jerk?

But it is strange that these adventures seem to feel the need to present what are essentially politial conflicts - who is going to control some important asset whose heritage (and the entitlements to which that gives rise) is contested? - are framed, simply via the alignment labelling of NPCs, as moral conflicts.

Whether or not that makes sense, it seems odd that these modules don't even seem interested in thinking about ways that NPCs might find themselves at odds with the PCs (out of duty, out of passion, etc) even though they are not evil.

It is neither strange, nor odd. Simplified morality is a staple of the action-adventure genre. While Conan may have moral ambiguity (I think moral inconsistency may actually be a more accurate observation), having clear, simple moral stances and coding are extremely common in sci-fi and fantasy genre fiction.

In general, while it may not be compelling to some, simplified morality is accessible, which is extremely important when you are trying to sell into a small market space.

In addition, historically, the biggest game in the RPG space had significant issues with how people perceived its implied morality. "The PCs are the good guys, they are fighting monsters and evil" was the required moral positioning of the 1980s.
 

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Good aligned deities create good things. Good things want to create and build harmonious societies. Evil aligned deities create evil things. Evil things want to destroy and inflict suffering. This is why the Good deities want to destroy the works of Evil and the Evil deities want to destroy the works of Good. Corellon does not want to reform Gruumsh's children; he wants to rid the world of them.

It really depends on your setting. Sounds like you're so used to your setting have orcs just be really ugly humans who were raised badly that you assume that's how they work in every setting, but it needn't be so.

What if an orc is the sort of creature that, if raised by elven parents since a baby, and taught to care for nature and all living things, will inevitably hear the call of Gruumsh in his soul at puberty, murder his parents, and eat their hearts?

No, Im just not comfortable with a setting where 'good' means 'genocide to evil'.
 


Thanks, Umbran for not saying " You are wrong and I dont care what you think" :)

You need something more solid to bridge from your anecdotal experience to the experiences of tens or hundreds of thousands of people.

It is a logical inference. I could spend days running truth tables and trying to represent the inference in analytical logical notation, but frankly it would be too much effort, and 99.9% would not be interested in puzzling out the notational language.. this is not appropriate for a casual board.

A claim such as :
1) At it’s base level, 5e needs a robust set of rules, that work for many different stories.

Can be tested via thought experiments.

If one wanted to run a Smurfs Campaign, such a campaign is more easily done in 5e, then in a system like Call of Cthulhu. A 5e smurf campaign, could be done by restricting players to a tiny race combining Gnomes and Halfling abilities. This is due to 5e being a system, that by design, can accommodate many types of themes.

Call of Cthulhu, by contrast, is a system designed to represent a very particular type of game. As much as a Cthulhu Smurf game might appeal to me, a Smurf game using as a base the Call of Cthulhu system, would wind up excising out many of the rules, that are necessary for the flavor of Cthulhu.

To flip the example on it's head, a 5e D&D system, that had- as one of the system's core assumptions, that one can only play a smurf, is going to have much lower general appeal then the current system.

By definition I can have no factual evidence to support a counterfactual argument, such as:
A Smurfquest game will sell less copies then D&D, ......
.............................................Outside, the logical inference that since Elfquest, and Call of Cthulhu have never matched D&D sales, the same conclusion for another Hypothetical, narrowly focused system,
is likely true.

We also have the history of 2e to guide us. Wizards of the Coast, through numerous statements, (that I am not going to track down and cite here), stated that a principle reason TSR failed was due to:

Too much product being produced, that could not be sold.

This was further, exacerbated by the fact that the D&D landscape had been fractured, (or silo'd), into fans of a particular setting...be it Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Spelljammer, Lankmar, The Land of Fate, Maztica, Ravenloft, Darksun, Mystara...etc, etc.

There had always been some cleavage in D&D rules form OD&D to Basic D&D to AD&D. Yet while there might have been a cleavage in mechanics,( in my opinion), the differences from, say Basic to AD&D did not extend to the type of stories that could be told.

That type of story cleavage did apply to 2e.

To me, the fact that people, (commonly and willingly), did divide themselves into fans that purchased products primarily for those settings that supported the type of themes they wanted to have in play.....
.....is de facto evidence that players wanted something, other than the hard baked assumptions inherent in the base 2e rule set.

The want of a different set of inherent hard baked assumptions,(be that different from 'core' or different from say Spelljammer), was severe enough to cause sales to be lower than was sustainable.

One of the most popular changes that 3e made, was to eliminate race/class combination restrictions.

Enworld, poster of yore, diaglo, may not have been happy at that....but most people were happy at dwarves being able to play wizards.

In a world of magic, the DM did not now have to contend with the issue of: "how does a non magical race, even survive, let alone thrive in a magical world?"

It was an invigorating, refreshing breath of fresh air into the design space of the game.

5e, kept this. The Bladesinger subclass, while having a racial restriction in the Forgotten Realms, explicitly states that this racial restriction is not universal, and need not apply to any other world, or more specifically, your game world.

I hope this explains my reasoning, and gives one a basis of comparison to their own. Sorry for the length of the post, inference takes volume to explain.
 
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Thanks, Umbran for not saying " You are wrong and I dont care what you think" :)



It is a logical inference. I could spend days running truth tables and trying to represent the inference in analytical logical notation, but frankly it would be too much effort, and 99.9% would not be interested in puzzling out the notational language.. this is not appropriate for a casual board.

A claim such as :
1) At it’s base level, 5e needs a robust set of rules, that work for many different stories.

Can be tested via thought experiments.

If one wanted to run a Smurfs Campaign, such a campaign is more easily done in 5e, then in a system like Call of Cthulhu. A 5e smurf campaign, could be done by restricting players to a tiny race combining Gnomes and Halfling abilities. This is due to 5e being a system, that by design, can accommodate many types of themes.

Call of Cthulhu, by contrast, is a system designed to represent a very particular type of game. As much as a Cthulhu Smurf game might appeal to me, a Smurf game using as a base the Call of Cthulhu system, would wind up excising out many of the rules, that are necessary for the flavor of Cthulhu.

To flip the example on it's head, a 5e D&D system, that had- as one of the system's core assumptions, that one can only play a smurf, is going to have much lower general appeal then the current system.

By definition I can have no factual evidence to support a counterfactual argument, such as:
A Smurfquest game will sell less copies then D&D, ......
.............................................Outside, the logical inference that since Elfquest, and Call of Cthulhu have never matched D&D sales, the same conclusion for another Hypothetical, narrowly focused system,
is likely true.

We also have the history of 2e to guide us. Wizards of the Coast, through numerous statements, (that I am not going to track down and cite here), stated that a principle reason TSR failed was due to:

Too much product being produced, that could not be sold.

This was further, exacerbated by the fact that the D&D landscape had been fractured, (or silo'd), into fans of a particular setting...be it Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Spelljammer, Lankmar, The Land of Fate, Maztica, Ravenloft, Darksun, Mystara...etc, etc.

There had always been some cleavage in D&D rules form OD&D to Basic D&D to AD&D. Yet while there might have been a cleavage in mechanics,( in my opinion), the differences from, say Basic to AD&D did not extend to the type of stories that could be told.

That type of story cleavage did apply to 2e.

To me, the fact that people, (commonly and willingly), did divide themselves into fans that purchased products primarily for those settings that supported the type of themes they wanted to have in play.....
.....is de facto evidence that players wanted something, other than the hard baked assumptions inherent in the base 2e rule set.

One of the most popular changes that 3e made, was to eliminate race/class combination restrictions.

Enworld, poster of yore, diaglo, may not have been happy at that....but most people were happy at dwarves being able to play wizards.

In a world of magic, the DM did not now have to contend with the issue of: "how does a non magical race, even survive, let alone thrive in a magical world?"

It was an invigorating, refreshing breath of fresh air into the design space of the game.

5e, kept this. The Bladesinger subclass, while having a racial restriction in the Forgotten Realms, explicitly states that this racial restriction is not universal, and need not apply to any other world, or more specifically, your game world.

I hope this explains my reasoning, and gives one a basis of comparison to their own. Sorry for the length of the post, inference takes volume to explain.

But there's a difference between saying "everyone must use relative morality" which is what I understood from your earlier posts and "alignment and how it works is up to the DM and campaign".

Your experience does not justify the former, having different takes on morality, alignment and the role of orcs is my take. Different games will be run differently.

Or I've just totally lost track of the thread, which is also quite possible.
 

I must have been unclear, as I am absolutely NOT saying "everyone must use relative morality".
what I am saying is:

The game has to be able to Support Relative Morality.

Hardwired assumptions like "Papa Smurf always says: Orcs are evil" can not be the only modality that is supported, or promoted.

Likewise, I would object to a set of assumptions that mandated "Papa Smurf always says: Orcs are Alignment: Any".

An 'evergreen' edition, has to be flexible enough to tell Lord of the Rings or a nihilistic exploration of Elfland.

5e has this flexibility. I like, campaigns of either style.
 

I don't fully understand this discussion of "relative morality". I don't see what that has to do with the nature of orcs - the question of whether orcs are able to change, or not, is about the pscyhology and metaphysics of orcs (as per eg @fearsomepirate's post not far upthread). It has nothing to do with the semantics and metaphysics of morals.

And @Flamestrike's posts don't seem to me to have anything to do with relative morality. In fact they seem to rest on a fairly strong conception of what it means to be good - namely, among other things, being good rules out the use of violence, especially lethal violence, against an orc simply because that orc is evil ie disposed to do bad things. Obviously it's not my place to put words in Flamestrike's mouth, but I wouldn't be surprised if s/he at least has some sympathy for the Socratic/Platonic notion that it is better to suffer evil than to inflict it.
 

It is neither strange, nor odd. Simplified morality is a staple of the action-adventure genre.
Most war films don't depict one group of soldiers as (near-)uniformly evil or wanton perpretrators of violence. Individual leaders may be singled out for such depcition, but typcially most soldiers are presented just as doing their jobs - which, in the case of soldiers, happens to mean attempting to inflict lethal violence on the other side.

This is the norm for a RPG like Traveller. There's no reason it couldn't be done in the sort of module I was describing in the post you quoted, where the PC's opponents are hostile soldiers opposed to the PCs' patrons on essentially political/traditional gounds.

EDIT: If you want orcs, use orcs. Why turn all enemy vikings, samurai etc into orcs as well?
 

It's mostly an abstract thought-exercise, because regardless of the metaphysics of your setting, making your players have to decide what to do with the orc babies is probably going to make you a really unpopular DM.

In my setting (1e Greyhawk Box + Whatever I Felt Like Making Up Today), orcs are the moral equivalent of sexually reproducing demons native to the Prime Material. But when you clear out a cave of orcs, are there ever babies? No. I break the fourth wall now and then to keep the game fairly lighthearted and remind everyone that it's just a game, and no, there aren't gonna ever be orc babies to worry about, so don't overthink it.
 

No. I break the fourth wall now and then to keep the game fairly lighthearted and remind everyone that it's just a game, and no, there aren't gonna ever be orc babies to worry about, so don't overthink it.
Tolkien at least once referred to them as corrupted elves (which are quite ageless) and the Urukhai are presented as corruptions created by sorcery... or insinuated as such.

From a certain Tolkein site
Treebeard openly wonders if they are Orcs that have been somehow "improved", or Men that were corrupted with Orc-like qualities, or if they were indeed a blending of Men and Orcs, an act which Treebeard considered to be "a black evil".
 

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