Nifft's Duelist (OBSOLETE)

[Nifft]

Check out the Diamond Duelist here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901


So, there's been some balance debate, and I agree with the folks who think this guy is too strong as-is. I'll keep the original here in a spoiler block, but that's only for historical value.

Expect new PrCs to appear in this space when I have time.

Thanks, -- N

[sblock]Duelist

A Duelist is a master of melee, specialized in light armor and weapons, but effective in any single-combat situation.

Prereqs:
BAB: +2
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
Skills: Bluff 4 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks

Class Benefits:
Hit Die: d10
BAB: as Fighter
Good Save: Reflex
Skills: 4 + Int -- Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowlege (Local, Nobility), Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble

Special Abilities by Level:
1/ Uncanny Dodge, Elaborate Feint
2/ Dodge +2/+1, Sneak Attack +1d6
3/ Dodge +3/+1, Duelist Bonus Feat
4/ Dodge +4/+2, Quick Thinking +2
5/ Dodge +5/+2, Sneak Attack +2d6
6/ Dodge +6/+3, Duelist Bonus Feat
7/ Dodge +7/+3, Riposte
8/ Dodge +8/+4, Quick Thinking +4
9/ Dodge +9/+4, Duelist Feat, Sneak Attack +3d6
10/ Dodge +10/+5, Acrobatic Evasion, Fool's Luck

• Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The character's Duelist levels count as Rogue levels for determining the character's Uncanny Dodge. (Thus, when Duelist + Rogue levels = 4, the character gains Uncanny Dodge. When Duelist + Rogue levels = 8, the character gains Improved Uncanny Dodge.)
• Dodge (Ex): The indicated value on the left replaces (does not stack with) the bonus provided by the Dodge feat, with all the restrictions of the Dodge feat. Any time the character would be denied his Dex bonus to AC, he also loses this bonus. Wearing Medium or Heavy armor negates this bonus. At the player's option, he may take the bonus on the right (1/2 the bonus on the left, rounded down) as a general Dodge bonus to AC vs. all melee attacks. Taking this option is a free action once per round.
• Elaborate Feint (Ex): The character adds his Duelist levels to any Feint checks.
• Duelist Bonus Feat: The character gains a Bonus Feat for which he is qualified, chosen from the following list: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficency, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Persuasive, Quick Draw, Spring Attack, Toughness, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Whirlwind Attack.
• Quick Thinking (Ex): The character gains the indicated bonus to initiative, which stack with Improved Initiative.
• Riposte (Ex): When the Duelist's designated Dodge opponent makes a melee attack and misses, the Duelist can make an immediate attack of opportunity against that foe. This counts towards the maximum number of attacks of opportunity that the Duelist can make in one round.
• Acrobatic Evasion (Ex): The character gains Evasion. If he already had Evasion (or later gains Evasion from another class), he gains Improved Evasion.
• Fool's Luck (Su): The Duelist may re-roll any single die roll, once per day. This is identical to the Luck Domain's granted power, and stacks with it and all similar powers. (Note that the character may only apply a single re-roll to any specific die roll.)

- - -

You could enter as a Human Rogue 3, or as any other race Rogue 2 / Ftr 1. Assume that Swashbuckler is not available, since this PrC pre-dates it significantly.

So, at 13th level, he could have:
+10 AC (vs. one opponent he can see), or +5 AC vs. melee attacks
+3d6 Sneak Attack
+ a great bonus to Feint checks
+ Evasion or Improved Evasion
+2 bonus feats
+4 Initiative

He pays with:
- very poor saves, particularly Fort save for a front-liner
- his big Dodge ability only works in Light or no armor
- no stealth skills for someone who wants to Sneak Attack a lot
[/sblock]

 

[GilaMonster]

The biggest thing that bothers me is the dodge bonus.

Firstly the ruling is wierd as dodge bonuses always stack, and here you have one that overlaps.
Secondly, the +10 to AC, even if it is against one opponent is huge, far higher than anything I've seen anywhere else. Compare with swashbuckler that gets +4 over 20 levels.

I know AC is supposed to be high by 13th level, but with this class and without spells or much work I could easily get AC 41 (+5 chainshirt, 18 dex, +4 ring of protection, +3 buckler, +10 dodge)

With an AC that high, the Riposte class feature can easily reduce to 'take an AoO against your opponent when he tries to attack you' and each of those attacks has sneak attack damage under good circumstances

The lack of stealth is not a downside. I'd imagine a character with this taking their sneak attacks because of flanking or feinting, not sneaking up on someone. Especially with the massive bonus to bluff checks for feinting.

I think if the dodge was toned down it would help. I like it as a class. The published duelist is a bit weak.

 

[Nifft]

The biggest thing that bothers me is the dodge bonus.

Firstly the ruling is wierd as dodge bonuses always stack, and here you have one that overlaps.

Think of it as modifying the Dodge feat instead of being two separate bonuses.

Secondly, the +10 to AC, even if it is against one opponent is huge, far higher than anything I've seen anywhere else. Compare with swashbuckler that gets +4 over 20 levels.

Compare with Monk -- the potential bonus from Wisdom is unlimited. This bonus is strictly capped, and severely limited in its application. Does no good against Invisible foes, against foes who Feint you, or against foes who use ranged attacks.

Swordsage gets Wis to AC when in Light armor, and I consider this to be similarly strong.

I know AC is supposed to be high by 13th level, but with this class and without spells or much work I could easily get AC 41 (+5 chainshirt, 18 dex, +4 ring of protection, +3 buckler, +10 dodge)

That's most of your money (for that level) spent on your AC. If you didn't have a +10 bonus to your AC, you'd have to wear significantly heavier armor to get a similar AC. (Mithral fullplate gives a +4, mithral tower shield gives another +3, but Dex is reduced to 14, for a total of +36, against all opponents. This class is better than the alternative when facing one opponent, but worse when fighting many.)

- - -

The trick to this guy is: 4 PCs vs. one opponent usually equals one quick fight. So I don't mind giving a huge bonus against one opponent. If the PCs are outnumbered, this guy is not going to shine as brightly, but they would have had a tougher fight anyway.

Considering all the Fort and Will bonuses that a Barbarian gets, I think he actually looks rather fragile... sure, he's got a great AC vs. one melee opponent, but that is really his whole point. He's highly specialized. Against attacks that don't target his AC, he's not great.

In that light, what do you think?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Darklone]

Hey Nifftyboy, I like it.

The only thing that bugs me a little bit about the class are the easy entrance prerequisites. If it's that easy, I'd rather like to have it as a coreclass/variant swashbuckler.

Another minor flaw. I like that you used sneak attack since it's a well established game mechanism that doesn't disturb normal gameplay. I didn't like the flavor it adds to the class... you need either Bluff to feint or allies to flank and that's not fitting for the stereotypical duelist.

So the precise strike damage of the original duelist or the swashbucklers int to damage would be a bit better IMHO. Or, even better: Add the Precise Strike damage to the class as it is.

 

[GilaMonster]

Compare with Monk -- the potential bonus from Wisdom is unlimited.

But getting a wis of 30 is not exactly easy. I haven't seen swordsage so can't comment.

That's most of your money (for that level) spent on your AC.

True. OK, change the chainshirt to mithral and drop to +4. Add gloves of dex. Drop the ring to +3. Total now 47000 gp (less than half wealth) and AC 40.

Single classed fighter with weapon focus, good strength (20) and +4 weapon will have around +23 to hit. He'd need a 17 to hit the duelist

Doesn't feel right.

This class is better than the alternative when facing one opponent, but worse when fighting many.

I don't quite agree there. With good teamwork and tactical placement it's not hard to get a placing where you're only been attacked by 1 opponent. The swash in my group keeps managing it. There's always tumble to get into a more adventageous position

In that light, what do you think?

I still think it's too high. I'd like to see what other people think though.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm.. Looking again at it, I think Gila is right, the dodge bonus in addition to light armors (Celestial chainmail anyone) is too high. Half it or drop it at least to medium BAB progression (-1 for the Dodge feat).

 

[brehobit]

As mentioned in another thread, I think it's a bit too much.

Compare to a fighter (yes, I know everyone thinks that's weak but...)
Over 10 levels he gets +3d6 sneak attack and 2 pretty darn handy feats. That is pretty much equivalent to a fighter's 5 feats (UA makes swapping feats for sneak attack dice an option, and most folks think it's fairly balanced). He gets a much better skill list, 2 more skill points, and a slightly poorer good save.

Riposte is better than most feats (is it one of the new feats from somewhere) and the uncanny dodge and evasion are better than most feats too.

The light armor restriction is pretty mild really, especially if your base class is rogue, ranger or even barbarian. The dodge just puts the AC over the top (esp. with uncanny dodge).

So I'd claim that with a much more mild dodge bonus (say improve the normal dodge to +2 at level 3, +3 at level 6, and +4 at level 9, no group bonus.), drop the hit die to d8, and move the sneak attack to sudden strike. Perhaps drop Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise and add lightning reflexes or some other weaker feat.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Arkhandus]

Gah, too much.......too much......

Sorry Nifft, but I'm not really sure how you thought this Fighter-Rogue Triple-Plus Mega-Ninja Fencing-Machine would be a fair prestige class. Since it has many similarities to the Fighter, that's what it needs comparing to......though as a prestige class, and a fighter-ish one, it's reasonable to give it some minor advantages over a Fighter.

Prereqs:
BAB: +2
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
Skills: Bluff 4 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks

Super-easy entrance...3rd-level human rogue or 1st-level rogue/2nd-level fighter of any race could easily enter the class, and not really be giving anything up to do so (all three feat prereqs are decent choices of direct-combat feat, two of the skills have direct combat uses, one of the skills has some combat use against another). Fine for a generic prestige class I suppose, if, y'know, you drop all pretense of "prestige" having anything to do with the class. Also, I'm not quite sure I've ever seen a prestige class that could be entered at 4th-level, rather than 5th-level or higher (and the majority need 6th-level or higher as far as I know).

Class Benefits:
Hit Die: d10
BAB: as Fighter
Good Save: Reflex
Skills: 4 + Int -- Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowlege (Local, Nobility), Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble

So....they get all the Fighter's basic stats, with one base-save switcheroo, and 2 more sp/level, plus numerous additional class skills.... They can be sneaky, they can infiltrate places in a social guise or a break-in-the-window-and-climb way, they can manipulate people in social situations, they're athletic and acrobatic.... I'm not seeing any weaknesses here. The fact that they lack a small handful of roguish skills does not really count as a drawback (they're more a Fighter-related class anyway, and those few roguish skills missing don't really diminish their role). All this, I understand, would be fine considering it's a kinda melee-focused prestige class. But, these are not the only advantages it has over a Fighter.....

Special Abilities by Level:
1/ Uncanny Dodge, Elaborate Feint
2/ Dodge +2/+1, Sneak Attack +1d6
3/ Dodge +3/+1, Duelist Bonus Feat
4/ Dodge +4/+2, Quick Thinking +2
5/ Dodge +5/+2, Sneak Attack +2d6
6/ Dodge +6/+3, Duelist Bonus Feat
7/ Dodge +7/+3, Riposte
8/ Dodge +8/+4, Quick Thinking +4
9/ Dodge +9/+4, Duelist Feat, Sneak Attack +3d6
10/ Dodge +10/+5, Acrobatic Evasion, Fool's Luck

So, they get 3 bonus feats over time (compared to the 5 a Fighter would get), from a somewhat smaller list than the Fighter's but still a useful array of feats, as well as 3 sneak attack dice (compared to the 5 a Rogue would get), Evasion, +1 to +10 on Bluff checks to feint in combat, full Uncanny Dodge benefits, an Initiative bonus that equals and stacks with the Improved Initiative feat, the granted power of the Luck Domain, a dodge bonus that exceeds the AC bonuses granted by any armor, and an easy way to get in attacks of opportunity every round.

This is quite a lot more than the class features of a Fighter or a Rogue. On top of having basic stats that slightly exceed those of a Fighter. Given the easy entrance requirements, who wouldn't take this prestige class as soon as possible, except for primary spellcasters? A straight Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Ranger with good Intelligence could qualify by 5th-level and enter the PrC at 6th. They certainly wouldn't have to give up much to do so.

Dodge (Ex): The indicated value on the left replaces (does not stack with) the bonus provided by the Dodge feat, with all the restrictions of the Dodge feat. Any time the character would be denied his Dex bonus to AC, he also loses this bonus. Wearing Medium or Heavy armor negates this bonus. At the player's option, he may take the bonus on the right (1/2 the bonus on the left, rounded down) as a general Dodge bonus to AC vs. all melee attacks. Taking this option is a free action once per round.

This is oddly worded. It should state, essentially, "The bonus a Duelist receives from the Dodge feat becomes equal his or her level in the Duelist class, as long as the Duelist does not wear medium or heavy armor." You don't need to repeat parts of the Dodge feat's text. The second part would be more appropriately worded as "At the beginning or end of the Duelist's turn, he or she may choose to apply the Dodge feat against all melee attacks. When doing so, the dodge bonus is reduced to one-half the Duelist's level in this class, rounded down, and is not limited to use against one opponent. This change lasts until the Duelist's next turn."

Elaborate Feint (Ex): The character adds his Duelist levels to any Feint checks.

This should really say "any Bluff checks to feint in combat" instead of "any Feint checks", for clarity and accuracy. Also, it's a rather significant boost. After a few Duelist levels, it's not likely that any foe could ever resist the feint attempts through Sense Motive (except on a rare, lucky happenstance of the Duelist rolling super-low and the enemy rolling really-high along with maxed Sense Motive ranks).

Quick Thinking (Ex): The character gains the indicated bonus to initiative, which stack with Improved Initiative.

This is just significant for its stacking with Improved Initiative, which is a also a bonus feat option for the class. Might want to keep it down to +2? Then move the 3rd Sneak Attack die to 8th-level to sorta fill the gap, since that'd fit the SA pattern anyway?

Riposte (Ex): When the Duelist's designated Dodge opponent makes a melee attack and misses, the Duelist can make an immediate attack of opportunity against that foe. This counts towards the maximum number of attacks of opportunity that the Duelist can make in one round.

This is also poorly worded. It doesn't specify if the dodge opponent has to miss when attacking the Duelist, or not (does it apply when they miss against an ally of the Duelist?). Keep in mind that the Duelist's high dodge bonus to AC means this Riposte ability will likely be activated every round (and in fact makes a Duelist with Combat Reflexes all that much deadlier against a group of enemies facing him together).

Fool's Luck (Su): The Duelist may re-roll any single die roll, once per day. This is identical to the Luck Domain's granted power, and stacks with it and all similar powers. (Note that the character may only apply a single re-roll to any specific die roll.)

I don't know why this is called Fool's Luck, when the Duelist seems anything but a fool. Great bluffing skill, many varied skills, extremely skillful fighting techniques..... Complete misnomer. Thematically I don't have a problem with the ability itself, though. Although I would kinda expect any self-respecting would-be Duelist to start off as a Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Cleric of Olidammara 1 (Luck domain and Trickery domain), just for the leetness of having double Luck domain powers later on.

He pays with:
- very poor saves, particularly Fort save for a front-liner
- his big Dodge ability only works in Light or no armor
- no stealth skills for someone who wants to Sneak Attack a lot

These aren't really things he's paying with, though. The prestige class' feat prerequisites and bonus feats make it good for a fighter/rogue multiclass, thus giving them a 2 or 3 point boost in Fortitude saves (more if they decide to, after Duelist 10, continue on to 4th-level as a fighter, for Weapon Specialization). And while Fortitude is kinda important for a front-liner moreso than others (more likely to encounter a foe's poison sting, diseased bite, paralyzing touch, etc.), it's already a Rogue's weakness anyway, so a Rogue entering Duelist isn't really losing out (he would've already stunk at Fort saves regardless).

Restricting them to light armor is nothing. With the huge Dodge bonus granted by the PrC, they'll easily outstrip a full-plate fighter in Armor Class. Compare:
Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Cleric of Olidammara 1/Duelist 10 --- mithral breastplate +5 (10 AC), mithral tower shield +5 (9 AC), dodge +10/+5 (5 or 10 AC), total AC = 34 or 39 on any given round, before considering Dex or other items
Versus
Fighter 14 --- mithral full plate +5 (13 AC), mithral tower shield +5 (9 AC), total AC = 31, before considering Dex or other items

Note that the only restriction your version of the Duelist imposes is that the Dodge benefit only works in light or no armor. A fighter/duelist is perfectly capable of using a tower shield at the same time, and a bastard sword (with EWP taken as a fighter bonus feat) in the other hand (your version of the Sword & Fist duelist PrC doesn't require use of a one-handed finessable weapon with nothing in the off-hand, or whatnot).

And what's this 'no stealth skills' thing you mentioned? Your Duelist isn't lacking in stealth skills. Even if you do remove Hide and Move Silently retroactively, it won't matter much at all. They've still got social infiltration/stealth skills, and they can still feint in combat to get in Sneak Attacks (or just flank with the party's other melee-dude, whether he's a fighter, rogue, cleric, summoned monster, or whatever). It's not at all hard for this Duelist to utilize his Sneak Attack damage.

Definitely need to take away or weaken several benefits to make this prestige class reasonable.

 

[Nifft]

Some excellent points here. I'm making three mistakes:

1/ Stealing Someone's Shtick. No bonus feats, or baby Fighter cries.

2/ Too much goodies. I'm going to have to look over PHB2's feats to see what remains as necessary class features.

3/ Too much generality. If it's a focused fighting style, it should have some strict requirements. I'll split it into two or three different focused dueling schools.

(Be gentle, though. I think this is one of the first PrCs I'd ever done. I had very few ranks in Balance back then. )

Thanks, -- N

 

[Arkhandus]

Hehe, sorry. People seem to get snippy at me anytime I post anything in D&D Rules, so I don't bother anymore to make sure my posts can't be construed as rude or mean (it never seems to matter; they find something to twist into a negative meaning anyway, and then choose to take grave offense at it). I'm a bit sarcastic and snarky, but not intentionally rude, just blunt.

Really though, this PrC is like the Ninja-flipping-out-and-killing-people real-ultimate-power kind of overpowered. Only, slightly less Ninja than that.

Probably reduce HD to d8, reduce dodge benefit by half, reduce feint benefit by half, take away bonus feats and sneak attack, make quick thinking +2 only, remove fool's luck and acrobatic evasion, and boost the prerequisites a bit. Clarify riposte and the others, add two or three minor fighting-style-based benefits over time. One of these could be a precise strike ability, similar to what the 3.0 Sword & Fist duelist has, which wouldn't step on the rogue's sneak-attacking toes as much. Maybe remove hide and move silently from the skill list, I dunno.