Nifft's Duelist (OBSOLETE)

[BRP2]

Well, Nifft I especially liked your Arcane Archer class(I tried to use it recently for a PbP game, but the guy was pretty strict)... though we tend to disagree about the word "Inspirer". I think this is a pretty cool prc, yeah probably too strong, but I'm not one to know much about balance. First thing I'd like to say: nothing is safe from powergaming. I have what some may call as "different" playing style, but I tend to not allow anything stronger than Mythril and magical bonuses for "light armor".

Despite you probably being a lot better at this than me, I'll try to help:

-This PrC is obviously a mix of Rogue and Fighter, so it might be a good idea to have the hit die represent that. d8, or even d6, might be better for it. They are hard to hit and you mention the weakness of not being tough, so it just makes more sense.

-It might be too accessible, even if that is what you were going for. Requiring level 5 would be okay probably.

-Bonus feats probably need to go.

-It seems everyone's problem is the Dodge bonus. Understandable I guess. I would make it the "one-target" bonus be half the Duelist's level in the PrC. For the "General" bonus, make it go up one at level 3, 6, and 9(Basically taking the place of the Bonus Feats). The problem is that with this, you don't see the bonus until higher in the PrC. For the "one-target" dodge bonus might wanna start it as with +2 and go from there... +6 at level 10.

-What I think this class is missing is some of the "Duelist" flavor(which I know you are trying to get at). It has the defense part alright, but the offense is not there. Precise strike as is might not be the best idea, but I just thought of something. It wouldn't be a bad idea to allow the Duelist to use Sneak Attack gained from the PrC and only the PrC to use as Precise Strike on the target you currently selected to Dodge from. They still get to use Sneak Attack as normal, but on one target they can get it a lot easier.

Without much foresight here is my version. Take what you want of it. I hope this helped.

[sblock]
Class Benefits:
Hit Die: d8
BAB: as Fighter
Good Save: Reflex
Skills: 4 + Int -- Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowlege (Local, Nobility), Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble

Special Abilities by Level:
1/ Uncanny Dodge, Elaborate Feint
2/ Dodge +2/+0, Dueling/Sneak Attack +1d6
3/ Dodge +2/+1,
4/ Dodge +3/+1, Quick Thinking +2
5/ Dodge +3/+1, Dueling/Sneak Attack +2d6
6/ Dodge +4/+2,
7/ Dodge +4/+2, Riposte
8/ Dodge +5/+2, Quick Thinking +4
9/ Dodge +5/+3, Dueling/Sneak Attack +3d6
10/ Dodge +6/+3, Acrobatic Evasion, Fool's Luck

Dueling/Sneak Attack: Against the target the Duelist is currently using his Dodge bonus against, he may use his Dueling Attack freely, assuming that target is not immune to Sneak Attack.

If this is too strong: You can lower his hit die to d6. Or You can weaken Riposte to do the following: When an opponent misses, the Duelist can make an attack against his Touch AC. If the Duelist succeeds, that opponent is flat footed for the rest of round. I think Riposte is fine the way it is though... I would focus on the hit die. Another thing one could do is lower the BAB to Medium, which might be a bit harsh.
[/sblock]

 

[Nifft]

So, I was looking over the SRD Duelist, and some things struck me:

1/ Canny Defense already grants +1 dodge to AC per level (up to your Int bonus). However, this is a dodge bonus to AC, not a dodge bonus vs. one opponent. Sure, you have to spend some resources to get your Int up to 30, but then it applies to all attacks.

2/ Elaborate Parry: holy cow. When fighting defensively, you gain an additional Dodge bonus equal to your class level. So, at level 7, you could be taking -4 to attack but gaining +9 AC.

3/ Thus, by 20th level, a traditional Duelist could have a +20 to AC against all attacks, and would deal +2d6 damage with all attacks. Which reminds me why I put in Sneak Attack instead of Precise Strike: I want the Duelist to Feint instead of just dealing extra damage. Under the Core rules, you can only Feint once per round, so his damage output is limited compared to a TWF Monk / SRD Duelist (who fights with one Kama and one empty hand).


... which brings me back to why I didn't like the Core Duelist in the first place: unarmored, shield-free fighting is a fine style, but it's not the only way people dueled.


Anyway, in light of the fact that my version of the PrC is actually weakening the dodge bonus to AC, what do y'all think?

(Did the SRD version get stronger while I wasn't looking?)

Thanks, -- N

 

[IndyPendant]

I don't know if this is for you Nifft--but when I meddle with SRD classes and PrCs, I always try to look for the simplest, easiest change I can make that still remains true to that class' concept. This serves two purposes: 1) there's less chance of screwing things up somewhere, and 2) it's much easier for my players to read and understand the changes.

Now, let's look at what the Duelist offers: 1) full BAB, 2) d10 HPs, 3) good (not quite great) skillset, and 4) some pretty niffty (heh) special abilities, most of them defensive in nature. Heck, it looks pretty durned good all by itself, actually. So why does it suck so bad that players don't want to even look at it? Personally, I think that can be summarized in two words: no. armour.

The Duelist gets no casting progression. It's not a spellcasting PrC. I don't really *care* what you get in compensation; no armour is a *severe* hindrance to any sort of non-casting class. Period, full-stop, end of paragraph.

It's a neat concept, trying to be able to fight without armour--but the monk already does that. The duelist doesn't need that ability to be fun to play or unique--his special abilities already do that for him. So I think the duelist needs only two easy-to-understand changes to become appealing:

1) The duelist can use all of his abilities while wearing light armour. He still can't wear a shield or use an off-hand/two-handed weapon.

2) *Possibly* also needs: Evasion at 4th level (or Imp Evasion if he already has Evasion), and Imp Evasion at 10th level.

That would (probably) do it for me. In fact, that may be what I'll do for it. : )

 

[brehobit]

So, I was looking over the SRD Duelist, and some things struck me:

1/ Canny Defense already grants +1 dodge to AC per level (up to your Int bonus). However, this is a dodge bonus to AC, not a dodge bonus vs. one opponent. Sure, you have to spend some resources to get your Int up to 30, but then it applies to all attacks.

Well, you can't have any armor or shield. This is no more powerful than the monk's AC bonus at 1st level. Yours works in light armor. Further, I think that a 15th level character is unlikely to have an INT much over 18. (14 base, +4 item). DEX will be more important to increase.

2/ Elaborate Parry: holy cow. When fighting defensively, you gain an additional Dodge bonus equal to your class level. So, at level 7, you could be taking -4 to attack but gaining +9 AC.

This is VERY nice. But don't forget you need to be 13th level to get this. Still darn handy.

3/ Thus, by 20th level, a traditional Duelist could have a +20 to AC against all attacks, and would deal +2d6 damage with all attacks. Which reminds me why I put in Sneak Attack instead of Precise Strike: I want the Duelist to Feint instead of just dealing extra damage. Under the Core rules, you can only Feint once per round, so his damage output is limited compared to a TWF Monk / SRD Duelist (who fights with one Kama and one empty hand).

The +20 AC Assumes an INT of 30 and a -4 to all attacks and no armor or shield. The +2d6 damage assumes a one-handed weapon. Taken together you have an open hand that could have been used for a shield (+7 AC at this level) or a two-handed weapon (say +2 damage for weapon, +3 for STR, total +5 damage).

In any case, I'd argue for sudden strike rather than sneak attack and the loss of the bonus feats and a halfing of the dodge bonus (or so). That would be close. Perhaps instead cap the dodge bonus with INT (and INT/2 for the "overall" bonus). Riposte is also too powerful. I'd say instead of an AoO it is an immediate action (so only 1 per round, eats the swift action slot).

Mark

 

[Nifft]

So, I've been thinking. There are some things that I really don't like about the SRD Duelist.

1/ Limited choices. You can't use armor or a shield or a two-handed weapon. You can't use a one-handed weapon and gain your extra damage mechanic.

2/ Limited tactical choices. You can fight defensively (for a fantastic benefit), or you can fight normally. That's about it. Flank or not, feint or not, these don't do anything special for you.

3/ Entry requirements. None of the full BAB classes have Tumble, so you're going to be level 8 when you enter Duelist (at the earliest).


So, I want to both allow choices and force choices. Allow choices in equipment, and force choices in tactics. This is the reason I strongly favor Sneak Attack damage + a Feint bonus -- one attack for extra damage vs. full attack for regular damage? That's cool.

However, I've left a bunch of stuff out, too. Duelists should be the best in the world at doing something that I totally forgot about: disarming. Seriously, how could I make a Duelist who doesn't require Improved Disarm and doesn't give any bonus to disarm checks, both to resist and to initiate?

Okay, back to the drawing board.

Thanks, -- N

 

[hong]

[threadcrap]
Play a swordsage, Nifft. You know you want to.
[/threadcrap]

 

[Nifft]

[threadcrap]
Play a swordsage, Nifft. You know you want to.
[/threadcrap]

[secretshame]
Yes. Yes I do.
I'm even forcing one as a cohort on one of my PCs so I can have one in my game.
[/secretshame]

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mistah J]

*Cough*
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=186935
*Cough*


Seriously though, I'd love to collaborate. My guy is on the strong side too I think, though I have heavier requirements. Either way, synergy can't be bad.. right?