No 5e threads for now, please

[GVDammerung]

I disagree with the ban.

Accepting for purposes of discussion of the ban that “5e” is code for “4e sucks” and hence “edition warring,” something important is being missed, I think. The biggest story to emerge from 4e is how the D&D community has been split; edition wars are merely the most obvious symptom of the split. Banning the most egregious examples of “edition warring” on a poster by poster basis is fine. Banning discussion of a potential 5e throws the baby out with the bathwater. Such an overbroad ban:

1st – Ignores the hulking presence of the split in the D&D community and makes EN World look by turns silly and Pollyanna-like.

2nd – Appears too easily as defacto taking sides in the edition wars - as an endorsement of the status quo or past as the only legitimate discussion, necessarily isolating those unhappy with the status quo and not yet ready to live only in the past.

3rd – Removes any hope of positively addressing the split via a discussion of D&D’s future that perforce is something relevant to all D&D players, not just Edition X or Edition Y. The future is common to fans of all editions.

The split in the D&D community occasioned by the release of 4e happened. The split continues. It is relevant. On any relevant D&D forum it should be able to be discussed as it effects D&D now and going forward. Ignoring it with bans, when individual posters who discuss the split only in terms of “edition wars” can be censored instead, is misguided and destructive of EN World’s reputation as THE place for D&D discussion.

YMMV

 

[doctorhook]

I disagree with the ban.

Accepting for purposes of discussion of the ban that “5e” is code for “4e sucks” and hence “edition warring,” something important is being missed, I think. The biggest story to emerge from 4e is how the D&D community has been split; edition wars are merely the most obvious symptom of the split. Banning the most egregious examples of “edition warring” on a poster by poster basis is fine. Banning discussion of a potential 5e throws the baby out with the bathwater.

I disagree that 4E "split the community", or that the fractures in the community are somehow the result of 4E. 4E didn't "split" the community any more than a sculptor "splits" a stone when he chisels off a piece. I think some folks tend to grossly exaggerate the proportions of the "split" to be 50/50, when in reality it seems more like 20/80 or more in favour of 4E.

If the community was "fractured" it was already so when 4E was announced.

 

[Dice4Hire]

The community is and has been split into myraid small pie es, though two of the larger pieces are 3.X and 4E, there are otehr good-sized pieces like Pathfinder, 2E and so on, plus os many small pieces (other systems and sub-editions) that no one can count them all.

What we need to do it respect each piece of the community, but that does not mean we need to discuss the different pieces ad nauseum. I know people still play the basic box, some do 2E, some do True20, or other games I have never heard of. But I have no real need to hear WHY they play those game, and I'll be a dollar to a donut that they care just as much about my reasons for the gaming I do.

I think discussing the split or different editions (including new editions) will jsut be rehashing old ground that has already bred enough flame wars already.

 

[Bumbles]

When has the D&D community, let alone the RPG community be a monolithic whole anyway? I'm pretty sure the first split happened back when Arneson first read this thing a guy put out about some war game.

 

[Sacrificial Lamb]

I disagree that 4E "split the community", or that the fractures in the community are somehow the result of 4E. 4E didn't "split" the community any more than a sculptor "splits" a stone when he chisels off a piece. I think some folks tend to grossly exaggerate the proportions of the "split" to be 50/50, when in reality it seems more like 20/80 or more in favour of 4E.

If the community was "fractured" it was already so when 4E was announced.

And I disagree with your disagreement. 4e has, at the very least, split the online gaming community, and in a place like ENWorld, that's what matters the most. The fact that a 5e topic ban exists at all is ample evidence of that.

Hell, because the climate for online discourse of D&D has radically changed in only a year at places like ENWorld and RPGnet, we're getting tons of online refugees to other websites like paizo and therpgsite.

And now I'll go a step further. 5e is not a theoretical nor is it a "mythical game-to-be". On the contrary, it's very much a reality based on WoTC's embrace of the "planned obsolescence model" (POM). We can bury our heads in the sand with a 5e topic ban, and not discuss the future of where the D&D brand is going, but the future's gonna happen even if we're not allowed to talk about it on this message board.

Anyone who doesn't recognize that 5e is only a few years away is willfully ignoring the reality of the POM. Like it or not, this is the way of things at WoTC. Why ignore it? The edition wars won't stop anyway, especially when Pathfinder comes out, so we might as well stop putting our heads in the sand, and acknowledge this one simple truth:

"5e.....ready or not, here it comes."

This is ENWorld. If we can talk about 5e, then maybe we can influence the course of its design. If we're stuck with a topic ban, then we're basically screwed, and will have absolutely no direct input in what they do. Not that they consulted us for 4e anyway, but maybe if we were open to discussion of this, then WoTC wouldn't feel like they have to be so damn secretive about the process....

See....here's the thing. If this infighting continues, then the only solution I can think of is it to split ENWorld into two sites.....ENWorld I and ENWorld II. ENWorld I would focus on 3e, OGL games, AD&D, and other pre-3e versions of D&D. ENWorld II would focus on 4e and GSL material. Yes, the fragmentation of the D&D hobby really is that bad now, at least online.

People have been discussing these issues outside of ENWorld, and well, this place just isn't as laid back as it used to be, before 4e was announced. ENWorld used to be the nice website, the center for all things d20 and OGL, but now all the fighting is causing this place to fragment and degenerate. Posters are getting more passive-aggressive, and the mods have been more short-tempered. Something has to be done soon, and the 5e topic ban is only a band-aid solution. It's not solving the real problem, and will just bite this place in the arse later on. All in all, I really don't envy the EN mods. If they don't devise a more creative solution to the conflict, then they're gonna be dealing with this insanity for a long time to come...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think what 4E did to create a split was exposing the different play styles people use, and surprising a lot of people that not everyone is playing like they do, and finding them unable to consider playing their game in one of the different ways.

I don't know if that is just because of the 4E design, or if it is simply because "everyone" is now discussing online about his RPGs, where it was not as big to the release of the 3E. EN World was born with 3E, it wasn't already around before its existence. Maybe it is both.

 

[Maggan]

Hell, because the change in the climate for online discourse of D&D has radically changed in only a year at places like ENWorld and RPGnet, we're getting tons of online refugees to other websites like paizo and therpgsite.

It would be interesting to look a bit more closely at the numbers for a while forward. EN World has roughly 83 000 members. TheRPGsite has, let's see ... roughly 2300 members. I can't find numbers for Paizo on their site, which is probably a good idea for them. (EDIT: for competition reasons, Paizo might not want to flaunt their numbers. That's my thinking.)

A ton of online refugees from EN World and RPGnet to TheRPGsite should boost the member count significantly over the coming months, which should be very noticable. It's going to be interesting to see exactly by how much!

/Maggan

 

[Sacrificial Lamb]

It would be interesting to look a bit more closely at the numbers for a while forward. EN World has roughly 83 000 members. TheRPGsite has, let's see ... roughly 2300 members. I can't find numbers for Paizo on their site, which is probably a good idea for them.

A ton of online refugees from EN World and RPGnet to TheRPGsite should boost the member count significantly over the coming months, which should be very noticable. It's going to be interesting to see exactly by how much!

/Maggan

therpgsite has gained hundreds of new people in a very short period of time, like in the past month or two. It's really weird. And these aren't just bots either, because we have all these new people who are actually posting, so.....something's up. I suspect the change in atmosphere at both ENWorld and RPGnet might have something to do with it, so if things continue in their current state at ENWorld, we may very well be seeing many more online refugees at the other websites over the next couple years. I love therpgsite, but I don't want us to gain new recruits like this...

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, I gotta say, SL, a lot of your post seems a bit overwrought. I don't think the split -- even amongst opinionated online gamers -- is as deep or irreconcilable as all that, and I think the 3e fans and the 4e fans have a lot of common ground and things to say to each other. I think people get emotional. It's not fun to have your favorite game's imminent demise rubbed in your face, and it's also not fun to have your favorite game already unsupported by the company that created it.

I don't think the POM is what WotC wants, and I forsee the next edition (or the one after that) being billed as the final edition -- that is, supported through rules updates online and occasional re-prints of the core books. The trauma of birthing a new edition isn't a healthy thing for the game as a whole, even if sales spike. WotC wants off the treadmill as bad as the players do, I think.

"Jane! Stop this crazy thing!"

 

[Maggan]

therpgsite has gained hundreds of new people in a very short period of time, like in the past month or two. It's really weird.

Interesting. I wonder how this stacks up against EN World? This site also seems to gain new users at a steady clip, so it might not be only TheRPGsite which is gaining, and it could be a natural phase of growth.

The question then is, are the majority of new posters at TheRPGsite people already registered at EN World who stop posting here, are they posters who register at TheRPGsite and continue posting here, or are they single forum users (i.e. stays with only one forum at a time)?

/M