No 5e threads for now, please

[lutecius]

Interesting. I wonder how this stacks up against EN World? [...]

there was a thread (now closed) about it in meta.

 

[wedgeski]

And now I'll go a step further. 5e is not a theoretical nor is it a "mythical game-to-be". On the contrary, it's very much a reality based on WoTC's embrace of the "planned obsolescence model" (POM). We can bury our heads in the sand with a 5e topic ban, and not discuss the future of where the D&D brand is going, but the future's gonna happen even if we're not allowed to talk about it on this message board.

The message as I read it is: "5E will happen, let's talk about it when it does" not "LA-LA 4E 4EVER!"

No-one's denying it's eventually going to arrive, but for heaven't sake let's give the game that is with us here and now a chance to breathe and grow. It's gonna be here for a few years, like it or not.

 

[Mistwell]

Here is what seems to be happening with TheRPGSite. There are three groups of new users at TheRPGSite right now I think.

The first group is a handful of users truly left EnWorld for TheRPGSite. I mean literally a handful, like about 5-6. However, these were some of the most "vocal" anti-4e folks here at EnWorld. I won't mention their names, but I think most folks would recognize their names.

Some more people who, perhaps, felt they still had something to say to these more vocal anti-4e folks, followed them in order to say it. I suspect that second group will get bored of responding to the first group and will eventually stop posting at TheRPGSite, but for now that seems to be happening.

A third group found out about this debate between the first and second group, and decided to go to TheRPGSite to eat popcorn and watch the debate. This group has no real intention of staying long or posting much at TheRPGSite I suspect.

So that is what I think is going on. I suspect, given some time (not much time in fact) it will end with 5-6 new active users at TheRPGSite, and a bunch of inactive users who were there just to briefly engage with some folks or watch that engagement.

And, as always, the people who really want to debate an edition war on a longer term basis end up at CircvsMaximvs.com

 

[wedgeski]

Holy good god I just went and browsed TheRPGSite's forums for the first time. This place is a paragon of mutual respect in comparison.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

I don't think the POM is what WotC wants, and I forsee the next edition (or the one after that) being billed as the final edition -- that is, supported through rules updates online and occasional re-prints of the core books. The trauma of birthing a new edition isn't a healthy thing for the game as a whole, even if sales spike. WotC wants off the treadmill as bad as the players do, I think.

I disagree with this. WotC is a company that wants to make money (and no, there is nothing wrong with making money, all companies want to do it). DnD is an excellent treadmill that turns a good profit for WotC. Why would it want off of it?

WotC makes a good amount of money on Magic the Gathering as well. They've established an amazing model of releasing a major set, two minor sets, and a base set every year (basically, new cards once a quarter). I'm sure they would love to release new editions of DnD on such a regular basis (heck, they may already have this pattern laid in stone and I'm just too blind to see it).

• In 1997, WotC purchased TSR and began work on 3E
• In 2000, WotC released 3E
• In 2003, WotC released 3.5
• In 2005, according to the Psion preview article on DDI, WotC began work on 4E
• In 2008, WotC released 4E

There will be a 5th Edition. I'll leave it to the reader to guess as to when it might be. But saying WotC wants off the DnD treadmill is saying WotC, as a company, wants to stop making money off of DnD. If and when that day comes, they will most likely sell the IP.

 

[Minicol]

See....here's the thing. If this infighting continues, then the only solution I can think of is it to split ENWorld into two sites.....ENWorld I and ENWorld II. ENWorld I would focus on 3e, OGL games, AD&D, and other pre-3e versions of D&D. ENWorld II would focus on 4e and GSL material. Yes, the fragmentation of the D&D hobby really is that bad now, at least online.

Honestly, I don't believe that would work. Some people want their Edition War like some others want the next episode of their favourite show. That would not stop them from posting negatively if they want to.

 

[Piratecat]

Holy good god I just went and browsed TheRPGSite's forums for the first time. This place is a paragon of mutual respect in comparison.

The rpgsite is very different than this place, but it's developed a really cool community and some excellent discussion. It's just a different sort of discussion and community than we have here.

I'd rather not have this thread turn into a discussion of rpgsite though, please. Thanks for that.

 

[Barcode]

Wow, way to take the high road on that, PC.

 

[Fifth Element]

There will be a 5th Edition. I'll leave it to the reader to guess as to when it might be. But saying WotC wants off the DnD treadmill is saying WotC, as a company, wants to stop making money off of DnD. If and when that day comes, they will most likely sell the IP.

I don't think that's what KM was getting at. I think he meant changing the delivery model of the game. Getting away from the core books + sourcebook treadmill. They may want to make money off the game, but in a way that doesn't cause the same upheaval that an entirely new edition does.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I disagree with this. WotC is a company that wants to make money (and no, there is nothing wrong with making money, all companies want to do it). DnD is an excellent treadmill that turns a good profit for WotC. Why would it want off of it?

Well, for one, I don't think it's as good a treadmill as all that. Every edition fragments the player base, injects bad blood into the community, causes confusion in the newbies, and fans the flames of debates that would otherwise die down. This is only going to get more true as the editions themselves get better, and bigger, and more challenging of what "D&D IS" (tossing away sacred cows and the like). It creates instant competition in the form of retro-editions, because you can't copyright rules.

If you're WotC, and you're smart, you realize that the healthy, happy player base is the way you get the most money. You expand the core game, you get everyone to buy your rules/books/online subscriptions/software/whatever, appeal to the biggest crowd of this niche little market, and you expand that niche because people will bring their friends in.

Think of the final edition something like the Flat World Knowledge Publishing people: you'll take bits and rules you like, and publish your own customized book for your own personal games.

Or think of something like a "patch" system where most of the rules are online, and books are only published as fancypants special collections of those rules, and more rarely.

Or think of it as the OGL turned up to 11: "we're giving all of our rules away for free, and we're making money on software and subscriptions, and on "customized content" for your home games written by professional developers."

New editions are a shot in the arm financially, but they're detrimental to the social networks that the game thrives on -- this is a negative externality so huge that I'm pretty sure dodging that bullet is infinitely preferable to taking it. It's also a tremendous risk, because if a new edition doesn't pan out like you hoped, you're committed to a dying horse for at least a few years, trying to prop it up and make it walk again, even though it wants to fall over.

Heck, the whole "incremental improvements to the game" are showing up in 4e stuff right now -- how MM2 fixes solos, or how rules updates apply to the CB and the compendium, or how the new psion tries to poke a hole in the heremtically sealed valut of the powers system. I'm not sure 4e quite has the strategy for updating where it should ideally be, but they're certainly dedicated to trying to get us consumers to accept that the game ain't complete after the first three books.

There will be a 5th Edition. I'll leave it to the reader to guess as to when it might be. But saying WotC wants off the DnD treadmill is saying WotC, as a company, wants to stop making money off of DnD. If and when that day comes, they will most likely sell the IP.

Actually, if they stay on the treadmill, it can only get worse. The more big editions there are, the more the community breaks up, the more people assume that there will be another edition (how many people, if they don't like 5e, will just say "let's wait five years!") so they don't need to buy into this one, the more people mistrust WotC and the D&D brand, the more they loose community goodwill, the more retroeditions pop up to compete, the more people look to other RPGs aside from D&D ("well, WotC stopped supporting the game I love, so I switched to Vampire...or to WoW!")

The edition treadmill is not a strong business model -- planned obsolescence never really is. I'd love to talk more about what the "final edition" could be in a thread, actually, but I think that would probably violate the 5e ban.