No Animate Dead?

[Drakhar]

My campaign has still strictly defined the reanimation of the dead as a morally unambiguous act of evil. I am glad it is not in the PHB.

Even the pantheon agrees with this as the god of undeath is "evil" and the Goddess of Death makes it one of her tenants to seek out and destroy undead as they are an abomination against the natural order.

 

[LowSpine]

Even the pantheon agrees with this as the god of undeath is "evil" and the Goddess of Death makes it one of her tenants to seek out and destroy undead as they are an abomination against the natural order.

Gods are against the natural order so they must be evil as well then.

This why I liked the fact they were getting rid of alignments only to be disappointed that the crappy things were still in.

If messing around with corpses was inherently evil then there will be allot of medical students going to hell.

If animating dead matter is evil then there are allot of robot manufacturers going to hell.

 

[frankthedm]

Gods are against the natural order so they must be evil as well then.

This why I liked the fact they were getting rid of alignments only to be disappointed that the crappy things were still in.

And rigged specifically to make the primordials the bad guys hook, line and sinker.

 

[Byronic]

Those in the PHB are the rituals that the players need to be concerned with. The only rules the players need be concerned with in regards to the undead is how to attack them.

I'm going to have to disagree (not only with this post but also others). Yes, I agree that raising undead skeletons is an Evil act in the DnD universe. However, this does not mean that Players should not have access to it. Sure, Good players should have to change their alignment to either Neutral/Unaligned or Evil if they do such things (too often).

However, PC's CAN and often ARE either Neutral or Evil. And they should be allowed the opportunity to raise undead things. However, one of the most important reasons why the ritual is not in the PHB is not the above. If it was they would have put it together in the Monster Manual (like the ritual to make a Vampire Lord) or in the Dungeon Masters Guide together with the Evil gods.

The most important reason is simply because they figured out the mechanics too late, decided it would fit better in PHB or some other book. And really if they're making a Necromancer class then PC's will probably play it (since monsters don't have classes anymore as far as I know). And that means they'll probably add a Raise Dead ritual. Most probably in PHB II if the Necromancer class isn't released sooner, if only because Raising dead things is kinda important for Necromancers. Hell, it might even be a daily power (have d4 Skeletons or Zombies rise out from the floor ready to defend you, Type changes at Paragon and Epic level)

 

[nittanytbone]

For evil NPCs, just say that they do a ritual of appropriate length (for your story) to raise the dead and treat the result as a normal encounter.

For PCs, it gets trickier. See my post here for a viable system involving combat NPCs in league with the PCs: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=228781

I would use similar rituals, change the flavor text, and perhaps require Arcana or Religion (with an appropriate component) instead of Influence. The monetary upkeep can be attributed to dark sacrifices or whatever. Use the base stats for a skeleton minion of appropriate level or whatever instead of a human and you're good to go.

 

[nittanytbone]

I'm going to have to disagree (not only with this post but also others). Yes, I agree that raising undead skeletons is an Evil act in the DnD universe. However, this does not mean that Players should not have access to it. Sure, Good players should have to change their alignment to either Neutral/Unaligned or Evil if they do such things (too often).

However, PC's CAN and often ARE either Neutral or Evil. And they should be allowed the opportunity to raise undead things. However, one of the most important reasons why the ritual is not in the PHB is not the above. If it was they would have put it together in the Monster Manual (like the ritual to make a Vampire Lord) or in the Dungeon Masters Guide together with the Evil gods.

This is not in line with the 4E design philosophy as I understand it.

Look at the deities in the PHB -- they are all good or unaligned. THe evil deities get some screen time, but ONLY in the DMG. The core classes are all aimed at PCs. The core cleric does all radiant damage. While the DMG states that you can easily flip that to necromantic damage for evil clerics, that isn't explicitly stated in the PHB (not anything like 3.5's turn/rebuke undead and cure/cause wounds swapping out). There is a core paladin, not a core "Holy Warrior of Extreme Alignment."

PCs are clearly intended to be heroes in 4E. Perhaps tragic heroes, or "unaligned" devil-may-care Han Solo-ish heroes, but heroes none the less. Playing a chaotic evil SOB that runs around and murders children and looting towns is not really what 4E is attempting to allow you to do.

Also, as an aside, maybe its just my idea of alignment, but I would impose significant consequences for any good -- especially lawful good -- character that is raising folks from the dead as animate corpses. So, PCs don't really need access to that info in the 4E paradigm.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Like I said, just wait for the Necromancer class to come out, or house rule.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Why do I have to be a child-murdering, town-smashing evil guy if I want to reanimate skeletons to fight evil?

I had a LN cleric of vengeance in 3.5 (a gnome, actually), and since he was smaller in stature than most all of his opponents he often animated zombies of rather large creatures to protect him while he used his single bard level to condemn the enemy and bolster allies, and then started in with the buffs, healing, and flame strikes.

I didn't just make skeletons and "lol", I used evil's dead as fuel for my engine for the destruction of said evil.

Just because it isn't YOUR idea of what a hero would do doesn't mean that everyone should be banned from doing it. In fact, the DM often said "your character would be LG if it wasn't for the undead thing, because of the way he acts." And that was fine with us.

 

[Plane Sailing]

FWIW Keep on the Shadowfell describes one kind of ritual for undead (not in the detail of the PHB of course, but good enough for you to reverse engineer a reasonable new one)

Cheers

 

[Byronic]

FWIW Keep on the Shadowfell describes one kind of ritual for undead (not in the detail of the PHB of course, but good enough for you to reverse engineer a reasonable new one)

Cheers

Do you have a page number for that? I don't want to read the whole thing in case I get to play it in sometime.