NO character concept what so ever, ahhh the freedom.

[Sagan Darkside]

Sure, but if I let my character grow "organically", taking whatever abilities seem "right" at the time, this can be rather frustrating. .

That is usually the price of people who just drift through life. If your pc wants something, then they need to go for it. Not just hope it comes about.

There game may not be realistic, but there are possibly some life lessons in it. *chuckle*

SD

 

[WizarDru]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of house-ruling it. I certainly don't expect 3.5 to contain anything like that.

Oh, well, jolly good, that. Carry on, then, Toodle-Pip!

Believe me, I think that it's a Good Thing(TM) to have options, and I actively advocate violating the rules to have fun. Three of my players have come to me and asked to be able to change their characters dramatically, to allow them to grow into concepts they envisioned for their characters...so we did it. The character who had taken levels of wizard, now was sorceror. The one who had taken levels of Shadowdancer had two of them converted back to Rogue. The character who realized he needed different feats to become a verdant lord, and that his previous character design didn't work for what he wanted to do? All changed in the name of FUN.

And I'd do it again in a heartbeat, with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. Different groups require different playstyles. My preference is that the core rules work without my intervention or forcing me to run an adventure purely to accomadate them (as opposed to the players or the story). I don't mind imposing such restrictions myself, but I don't want the rules to do MY job, I guess.

 

[Drawmack]

But I don't play d&d to be the equivilant of a janitor.

I don't play to be the equivolent of a Dr. either. so let's make it more game like. I'm sure that Merc had that planned since he was 8.

Oh ho ho. I was being heavily sarcastic. It is a game. It is a not a life simulator. Realism tends to be ugly, complicated, and sometimes a bit boring. Realism can bite my big toe.

smiley are a good thing.

The odds are the PrC then (if designed well) revolves a bit around hiding- why would the pc be going for it if they don't hide in the first place? If it is poor design, then fix it for your campeign.

Or he could focus on syping and sneaking. Part of this is normally hiding but there are ways to do it without hiding such as disguises. However the PrC is designed with the idea that spying and sneaking require hiding. Not necessarily a bad design just a little on the inflexible side for the prerequisites.

That just sums up your argument. You don't like it- so obviously it is just for munchkins and such.

Did I ever say that only munchkins use this? No I said it encourages munkining. IMO: The entire skills and feats system encourages munchikining but I'm not saying it should be done away with or even that I don't like it. You seem to be nit picking on a few very small things to attempt to invalidate my entire point. However you have yet to put together an argument that holds any kind of water.

 

[the Jester]

I'm playing a character right now who has been looking for a prc he likes since 4th level (he's now 14th).

After some travels to other planes and stuff, he's decided to take gatecrasher. So I plotted out my advancement for 14th-16th to qualify, then 17th I'll take gatecrasher.

The MotP has been out since he was prolly 5th level, but it was in-game circumstance that led to my choice. And come around 25th level he'll take legendary dreadnaught (Epic prc from ELH).

Planning's required once you decide, but I often prefer to wait until the character's struck by a prc to start trying to get the prereqs... although I do build the prc concept from the start sometimes too.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

You seem to be nit picking on a few very small things to attempt to invalidate my entire point. However you have yet to put together an argument that holds any kind of water.

Ok, fair enough. After a deep breath, let me try to be a bit more civil.

I don't think either way is a problem. There are always going to be people who do structure their lives- they know what they want and they know how to go about getting it. Then they do.

Then there are going to be people who just drift through life and pick up skills as they are needed/wanted.

I don't think the former is an abuse of the system- it is a manner for people to define their characters to their tastes. The system is a game for having fun, and if they find that fun- toodles for them.

Now, as a dm, if you want to throw a wrench in their plans- toodles for you, but becareful not to alienate the player while doing it.

I let my players know from the beginning they will only get feats/skills/PrC's with dm permission- it has to make sense. .and sometimes IC time spent working for it.

Two of my three players tend to be of that former category, but as I think about it- I have developed a system to stimulate the latter. I offer free skill points or competence bonuses for skills worked at between adventures/sessions. It usually comes at some cost, but since the skills available to learn is dictated by the character's environment- it has led to a more "organic" character scheme.

Off to find some water
SD

 

[Darklone]

I started a group with only newbies. Therefore I didn't expect them to write background stories, I was glad if some of them had an idea at all what to play.

About PrClasses... Well. I don't like them. But if a player would ask me if he could enter one without fullfilling the prerequs, I'll probably say yes if it fits his character.

 

[jmucchiello]

If I may offer a suggestion:

For those of you who dislike players planning their character yet at the same time dislike failing to be able to enter PrCs without planning, try this.

1) Look at the PrC and determine the minimum entry level for it. (usually by looking at the skill requirements.)

2) Increase one of the highest skill requirements by 2 ranks.

3) If an in game reason for the character to take the PrC comes up and he mets the level requirement in step 1, let him take a level in the PrC.

4) Do not allow the character to advance to 3rd level in the PrC unless he has met all requirements necessary to have taken the PrC in the first place including the rank boost in step 2.

5) Characters cannot take levels in a second PrC unless they already meet those requirements. Or have met the requirements in step 4 for the first PrC. (Arguments about allowing a charcter multiple PrCs are beside the point. This rule is for those who say it is allowed.)

I've been considering putting a paragraph or two about this in the ever-late Character Customization book (link below). My problem with PrCs is that you should also have requirements to reach level 7 or 8. And that these requirements should be designed such that the character must advance one or more of his old classes in order to go up in level.

For me, optimally, you would take levels 1-5 readying for a PrC, 6-10 apprentice/journeyman of the PrC, 11-15 advanced study in other classes and then 16-20 mastering the PrC. And then when you hit 21 you'd be ready for some epic extension of the PrC. In the nomral course of play you plan level 1-5, PrC 6-15 and then mark time from 16-20 waiting for that epic boost. It doesn't seem right.

Anyway, just a little food for thought.

 

[Drawmack]

Well said, now we can discuss this.

I don't think either way is a problem. There are always going to be people who do structure their lives- they know what they want and they know how to go about getting it. Then they do.

Then there are going to be people who just drift through life and pick up skills as they are needed/wanted.

Point well made and taken. This being the case the person would make situations in their lives where they acquired the necessary skills for their choosen path. Let's take a doctor for example. He knew since he was a little kid he wanted to be a doctor. So in high school he took every anatomy class offered and worked his buns off to get good grades in the hopes of a scholarship. Whereas the person without this goal just took the classes they liked and got (we'll make them above average like adventurers are supposed to be) Bs.

This is my point. If a player comes to me when they are level 1 and says I want to be a spymaster, I would not mind. However it would then be up to the player to place the character into situations condusive to this eventual goal. Practice the skills it requires, attempt to get affiliated with an organization that has a spy network, etc. etc.

When I say it is an abuse of the system is when someone wants to be a spymaster for some of the cool things that the class gets. So they plan a leveling chart with I'll do this here and that there and at level x I can be a spy master. However the skills they place ranks into are not what they practiced in game, they never attempt to build affiliations with the correct groups, etc. etc. then they get to level x and take the PrC. It simply does not make any sense to me.

Now, as a dm, if you want to throw a wrench in their plans- toodles for you, but becareful not to alienate the player while doing it.

All my players know upfront what they have to do to take a PrC.

 

[Drawmack]

1) Look at the PrC and determine the minimum entry level for it. (usually by looking at the skill requirements.)

2) Increase one of the highest skill requirements by 2 ranks.


3) If an in game reason for the character to take the PrC comes up and he mets the level requirement in step 1, let him take a level in the PrC.

4) Do not allow the character to advance to 3rd level in the PrC unless he has met all requirements necessary to have taken the PrC in the first place including the rank boost in step 2.

I like these a lot. Though you could take it a step father. Place prereqs on every 4th level of the PrC and you either have to meet the prereques or be minimum level that forces 1 level in another class to take another level in the PrC.

For me, optimally, you would take levels 1-5 readying for a PrC, 6-10 apprentice/journeyman of the PrC, 11-15 advanced study in other classes and then 16-20 mastering the PrC. And then when you hit 21 you'd be ready for some epic extension of the PrC. In the nomral course of play you plan level 1-5, PrC 6-15 and then mark time from 16-20 waiting for that epic boost. It doesn't seem right.

I see one problem with this. What about classes and PrCs that don't allow you to take levels in any other class i.e. Monk, Warpriest, etc.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

It simply does not make any sense to me.

That I would agree with being silly, and I have had my fair share of it.

For example: A player who had a swashbuckling rogue pc wanted to take the gladiator PrC. Why? Because of the ability to do bluffs as a move equivilant or something like that.

In that campeign- such a PrC just would not exist. So, as a compromise, we took an existing PrC (I forget which, he died before he reached it- gotta love the BaneWarrens) and switched out an approximately equal power for the one he really wanted.

Before the death- every was happy.

Ok, the point of my rant- it does not have to be abuse. It just becomes a matter of tweaking things to make everyone happy.

SD