D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

See, I personally think 2E is worst with its elves. Buuut...

3E started with just Elf and Half Elf, Monster Manual brought in Grey Elf
Forgotten Realms campaign setting gave us Drow, Moon Elf, Sun Elves, Wild Elves and Wood Elves
OA had elves again, though just an alteration of the PHB ones
Races of Faerun gave us Aquatic Elves and Avariel, plus two more half elves
The last 3.0 elf was the Star Elf, from Unapproachable East

3.5E's where the wheels come off

Monster Manual 1 gives us Aquatic, Drow, Grey, High, Wild and Wood
Dragonlance Campaign Setting gives us Kagonesti, Qualinesti, Silvanestia, Dargonesti and Dimernesti. I don't remember the stats but I'm fairly certain the first 3 can just use other elf stats, the last two are Dragonlance's famous "We added more aquatic elves"
Underdark has Drow, again
Frostburn gives us Snow Elves
Sandstorm gives us Painted Elves
Stormrack gives us Aquatic Elves, again, plus half-aquatic elves
Dragon Magic gives us Deepwyrm Droow and Forestlord Elves, plus half-elf options. Note these were like... Half dragon elves?
And finally, Drow of the Underdark gives us what is probably the most 'is this really necessary' in the Szarkai, the albino drow
Several of these were environmental subraces that there were dwarf, gnome and/or halfling equivalents for. While yes, it adds to the sheer number of elves in the game, it's not like they said "we're making an Arctic book. Let's make snow elves and that's it".
 

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elaborate on the elves I need a laugh to keep the misery at bay.
@Mecheon is probably right about it starting in 2e & just continuing the trend a bit through 3.x. I dud some digging on google & came across
High
Wood
Wild
Grey
Valley
Drow
Aquatic
Avariel
Lythari
Marels
Moon
Sun
Star
Cooper
Green
Celadrin
Fey'ri
Deep
Ghost
Dargonesti
Mahkwab
Kahonesti
Sylvanesti
Qualinesti
Cha'asil
Hulderfolk
Tamirnesti
Shadow
Wildspace
Aerenal ancestor elves but they engage in ancestor worshiping through the form of fueling them as not quite but kinda still basically liches
Valenar These guys are more like klinons than traditional elves)
A different drow in eberron
Umbragen
La'shay
Athas elves
Eladrin
Fair
Forlorn
Accursed
Desert
Arctic
Jungle
Fire
Forestlord
Illaeli
Snow
Lethani
Dark
Doulathan
Seleeris
Aralarai
Twilight
Caransil
Danisil
Miransil
Cumasti
Westryn
Wandering
Summer
Winter
Harrow
Shoal
Cherubim
The vast majority of them are little more than "elf but instead of +2 dex/-2 con & xyz ribbony bits it has +2other stat -2 other stat & ribbony bits that perfectly fit $New-PrC-InThisBook"
 

@Mecheon is probably right about it starting in 2e & just continuing the trend a bit through 3.x. I dud some digging on google & came across
High
Wood
Wild
Grey
Valley
Drow
Aquatic
Avariel
Lythari
Marels
Moon
Sun
Star
Cooper
Green
Celadrin
Fey'ri
Deep
Ghost
Dargonesti
Mahkwab
Kahonesti
Sylvanesti
Qualinesti
Cha'asil
Hulderfolk
Tamirnesti
Shadow
Wildspace
Aerenal ancestor elves but they engage in ancestor worshiping through the form of fueling them as not quite but kinda still basically liches
Valenar These guys are more like klinons than traditional elves)
A different drow in eberron
Umbragen
La'shay
Athas elves
Eladrin
Fair
Forlorn
Accursed
Desert
Arctic
Jungle
Fire
Forestlord
Illaeli
Snow
Lethani
Dark
Doulathan
Seleeris
Aralarai
Twilight
Caransil
Danisil
Miransil
Cumasti
Westryn
Wandering
Summer
Winter
Harrow
Shoal
Cherubim
The vast majority of them are little more than "elf but instead of +2 dex/-2 con & xyz ribbony bits it has +2other stat -2 other stat & ribbony bits that perfectly fit $New-PrC-InThisBook"
Does anyone have the lore on the different types of elves mostly as I am trying to avoid thinking about things that I am told not to think about and could use the distraction?
 

@Mecheon is probably right about it starting in 2e & just continuing the trend a bit through 3.x. I dud some digging on google & came across
High
Wood
Wild
Grey
Valley
Drow
Aquatic
Avariel
Lythari
Marels
Moon
Sun
Star
Cooper
Green
Celadrin
Fey'ri
Deep
Ghost
Dargonesti
Mahkwab
Kahonesti
Sylvanesti
Qualinesti
Cha'asil
Hulderfolk
Tamirnesti
Shadow
Wildspace
Aerenal ancestor elves but they engage in ancestor worshiping through the form of fueling them as not quite but kinda still basically liches
Valenar These guys are more like klinons than traditional elves)
A different drow in eberron
Umbragen
La'shay
Athas elves
Eladrin
Fair
Forlorn
Accursed
Desert
Arctic
Jungle
Fire
Forestlord
Illaeli
Snow
Lethani
Dark
Doulathan
Seleeris
Aralarai
Twilight
Caransil
Danisil
Miransil
Cumasti
Westryn
Wandering
Summer
Winter
Harrow
Shoal
Cherubim
The vast majority of them are little more than "elf but instead of +2 dex/-2 con & xyz ribbony bits it has +2other stat -2 other stat & ribbony bits that perfectly fit $New-PrC-InThisBook"
The elf Subraces were stale copy pasted to make the most popular nonhuman race fit each book


Now that 5e is a low book edition, they aren't making subspecies when there actually are imaginary fantastical niches for them uncovered.
 

The elf Subraces were stale copy pasted to make the most popular nonhuman race fit each book


Now that 5e is a low book edition, they aren't making subspecies when there actually are imaginary fantastical niches for them uncovered.
Agreed. I wasn't saying we should have 47 of anything, just that waiting till the first splatbook or whatever allows them to be mechanically designed to fill a niche people want to have filled for their build rather than having mechanics so bad nobody uses them while understanding how bad they are
 

Does anyone have the lore on the different types of elves mostly as I am trying to avoid thinking about things that I am told not to think about and could use the distraction?
90% of them fit into the simple High/Wood elf mix, of either being the arcane magic int based ones (Gray, Sun, Moon, Star, Silvanesti and Qualinesti) who, they're all high elves, and then the dex based nature-y ones (Wood, wild, etc). Just, older editions demanded they all have seperate stat lines rather than just being "Yeah this is another culture of elves"
 

Pretty much you have the two types described in 196 for fr greyhawk and similar. And then you have the unique ones that eberron and darksun have,
 


Yes, it is, obviously, duh. But.... how is it any more "gatekeeping" than the D&D brand being the sole, exclusive property of Wizards of the Coast (a subsidiary of Hasbro), whose singular licensing department and executive suite has the exact same authority?

If a private corporation, any private corporation, has a contractual restriction on to whom its owners may sell their interests... who do you think gets to decide to whom they're allowed to sell them to? Not you... and not me...
The uncaring gaze of the company, who's more concerned on profits, allows us to get away with heaps more stuff than it would. Under WotC its caring very much about D&D being popular, so they can do a movie deal and release more movies to get more money. As long as you're not hurting their bottom line, they really don't care what you're doing. That gives people tons of freedom as long as they're not calling it official.

I didn't want to poke at this because its irrelevant to the thread but. Let's analyse your points

I know it's a pipe dream, but a private holding company that only owned two things (Hasbro stock and cash money) could eventually own enough of both that it could force Hasbro to sell Wizards of the Coast to it. The only actual staff the "D&D Brand" needs after the initial setup is skeleton crews to apply errata and order reprints for the major "SRD families" of D&D (B/X, BECMI, Advanced, 3.X, 4e and 5e) and the licensing department. The latter pays for everything else and pays out profit share to the (still private, invite only) shareholders of the holding company.
And your pipe dream is not only impossible (Hasbro will hold onto the D&D license to their dying breath because they hold onto every license that strongly), but your business transaction? That's just going to flood the market with a whole bunch of stuff that is nonsensicle to the general public who care about. You'd get in a TSR situaiton where your company is burning massive amounts of money doing up stuff for stuff that isn't going to sell, all of those other editions are barely going to get any sales in this day and age

What's your actual plan for getting new people into Dungeons and Dragons and presenting to them a unified whole? Because "Here's over 5 different versions that are all incompatible with each other" is the worst business idea I've heard in decades, and let's be honest, even the biggest selling OSR products today are selling fractions of what 5E is doing. You'll be propping up dead products and competing with yourself. This is one of the mistakes TSR made, and its a big part of why its dead

Where does the "new D&D" come from? Everyone who owns any portion of the D&D-- by invitation only-- has the full unilateral right to publish "official D&D" supplements for any of the SRD families. Official D&D trade dress, official D&D edition trade dress, their own publisher trade dress. And SRD or not, anyone who can publish official D&D can use official D&D in their official D&D products. Once a decade, staggered, the shareholders update the SRDs and the core rulebooks with new material and publish a "new edition" (AD&D 1e -> 2e or 3.0 -> 3.5; not 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5) and decide whether or not the family tree needs new branches.
So you're just slapping the D&D license on anything if its one of those people? This is incredibly, incredibly exploitable. You've now given folks carte blanche to publish whatever they want and you're implicitly licensing it. Hey, what if someone does something along the lines of Drums on Fire Mountain, the "Wow this old adventure is incredibly racist against islanders", or OA's hot mess that are still popping up to this day even with WotC just trying to douse them with "Yeah we just put this up for sale for archival purposes". How are you going to handle that backlash? There's no directors here, there's no legal team, there's no team given the very specific task of checking these and making sure no one's Trojan Horsing it to go and publish something more at home in the NuTSR thread.

You've stuck the D&D license on it, you've given it your tactic stamp of approval as an Official D&D Product that is now incredibly racist and is being dragged across media. Can't just 'oh we shareholder' the way out of that, having no oversight over what's being done is how we got the Spelljammer mess. And that's before someone just comits fraud and rips off Disney and sticks it in the book, leading the Mouse's lawyers coming a hunting for blood. How are you going to get out of that mess? Who's going to organise the lawyers and legal fees and snap someone off who, per all this detail, is now a shareholder of the company you have to throw to the wolves because they messed up and had no oversight?

Larian wants to make Pirates of Realmspace 2, Owlcat wants to make Pathfinder: Serpent's Skull, they don't pay out massive licensing fees to Official D&D, they're shareholders. Their marketing budget is our marketing budget, the tie-ins are organized in advance, and the open license third-party ecosystem is a constant source of new blood for the-- invite only-- Official D&D brand.
Which is going to either dilute your brand's reputation to absurdity, like we actively saw during 3E, or lead to it being tainted. I'm just saying, folks didn't except BG3 to sell well not due to anything on the company, but because every D&D video game since Neverwinter Nights 2 had been awful and it was just expected it'd follow suit. To say nothing for the invite only thing inevitably circulating power in the hands of a few and just leading to an in-group who need to be appeased and only care about that appeasement, not whether it makes money, whereas at least WotC's profit-driven margin gets them getting new people in to get fresh ideas to keep the game going longer.
 

Feel free to come up with your own rules if you aren't crazy about the official rules. ;)
Sure. That argument can be used against any criticism of the rules, existing or proposed; if you can just "come up with your own" rules for separating ancestry and heritage, why do you need the official rules to allow it? (I'm not making that argument. There are good reasons to do it.) I think these rules, if made official, if made a part of the core... will have negative effects on gameplay at more tables than it will positive. Negative, predictable consequences because they've been happening for far longer than I've been predicting them.

Honestly... it's not even that I am predictably and obviously going to lose, because I've already lost. All the other changes I'm comparing this to happened before I recognized the problem for myself. (AD&D was before my time, and I was fully in favor of the changes in 3.0 and PF1; I didn't start arguing for race-as-class and AD&D restrictions until after I discovered the OSR.) I just want people to quit being so starry-eyed about it and acknowledge they're making a tradeoff and, in many cases, what they're sacrificing is the exact thing they're trying to accomplish: immersion.
 

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