D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Corinnguard]

1. Should WoTC recreate Dwarven and Halfling subspecies? Yes, they should. They have been around for several editions and certain fans of the D&D community will miss them if they weren't recreated in One D&D.

2. Should WoTC create Orc subspecies? It would be neat if they did. PF1 had had a Pathfinder Player Companion had a book titled Bastards of Golarion where the Half-Orcs had several Orc lineages which suggested that there were different kinds of Orcs in PF1's Golarion setting. Once such Orc heritage were the Desert Orcs.

3. How fast do you want it? Like a couple editions ago....

4. Will you (re)create them if WoTC doesn't? Not really. There are better brewers in the D&D community than me. Ex. Laser Llama and Kibblestasty.

5. What are your ideas for them? We'll need another thread for this. This one has grown too big.

 

[Hussar]

It's an objective measurement. Pre-3.x attribute mods for -1/+1 were around 6&15 . Since 3.x -1/+1 has been at 8 & 12. Shrinking the dead zone of +0 from a nine pout spread to a four point spread puts dramatically more pressure on players to feel that they need to make optimized attribute choices because nearly every attribute will matter and matter more. Also the post of mine that you quoted to say this was literally quoting and responding to a post demonstrating the impact of how they reduced spread pressures players to feel that way, I'm bewildered that you would assume that your players were a group I was specifically talking about.

Sorry, your statement looked like it was speaking for all players. My bad.

 

[Scott Christian]

The thug and spy aren't normal people.

They are elite who had special training (nobles, knights), had strong vetting (spies and cult leaders) , or undergone intense weeding process (thugs and veterans).

I have no problem with you representing the common NPCs of your created world as, well, we'll call them 10'ers. Straight 10's on all ability scores. But, that cannot, and should not be the popular view. Let's look at 5 common professions:

1. The dwarven blacksmith. You mean to tell me that dwarven blacksmith in each and every town has a 10 strength. They swing a heavy hammer all day and bend iron, yet don't have at least a 14 strength?
2. The goblin street urchin. You know the one, the one that has spent three years running, hiding, sneaking, and pilfering. You mean to tell me they don't have at least a 14 dex?
3. The elven sailor who navigates the ship. You mean after to tell me they can't have a 14 intelligence since, you know, their job is fairly commonplace. We'll throw the human hunter in their too. They don't have a 14 wisdom?
4. The old gnome librarian. Sure, this person has spent a lifetime around knowledge many people might not have access to, but hey, they still only have a 10 intelligence?
5. The human salesman. You know, the merchant who peddles and hawks the latest fashions and flavors of the kingdom. They can't have a 14 or 16 charisma?

I think if you are running an adventure, and 90% of the people your PCs meet are 10'ers, then players will become disinterested very quickly.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I have no problem with you representing the common NPCs of your created world as, well, we'll call them 10'ers. Straight 10's on all ability scores. But, that cannot, and should not be the popular view. Let's look at 5 common professions:

1. The dwarven blacksmith. You mean to tell me that dwarven blacksmith in each and every town has a 10 strength. They swing a heavy hammer all day and bend iron, yet don't have at least a 14 strength?
2. The goblin street urchin. You know the one, the one that has spent three years running, hiding, sneaking, and pilfering. You mean to tell me they don't have at least a 14 dex?
3. The elven sailor who navigates the ship. You mean after to tell me they can't have a 14 intelligence since, you know, their job is fairly commonplace. We'll throw the human hunter in their too. They don't have a 14 wisdom?
4. The old gnome librarian. Sure, this person has spent a lifetime around knowledge many people might not have access to, but hey, they still only have a 10 intelligence?
5. The human salesman. You know, the merchant who peddles and hawks the latest fashions and flavors of the kingdom. They can't have a 14 or 16 charisma?

I think if you are running an adventure, and 90% of the people your PCs meet are 10'ers, then players will become disinterested very quickly.

How are the players going to tell what the dwarven blacksmith's strength is? They planning on fighting everyone they meet? The dwarven blacksmith is exactly strong enough to sell the party the armour and weapons they need. "10" = "irrelevant".

 

[Scott Christian]

How are the players going to tell what the dwarven blacksmith's strength is? They planning on fighting everyone they meet? The dwarven blacksmith is exactly strong enough to sell the party the armour and weapons they need. "10" = "irrelevant".

You don't need to "fight" in order for the DM to know what the blacksmith's strengths and weaknesses are. What if the party strongman wants a bit better price, so he looks the blacksmith up and down, and then poses that he can beat him in arm-wrestling. The blacksmith has an ego, and says he'll knock off a gold if the PC wins. IF not, they pay double. If you are the DM, are you giving the blacksmith a 10 strength?

That right there is a reason for the DM to know the NPCs and to not pigeon every commoner with a 10.

 

[CreamCloud0]

How are the players going to tell what the dwarven blacksmith's strength is? They planning on fighting everyone they meet? The dwarven blacksmith is exactly strong enough to sell the party the armour and weapons they need. "10" = "irrelevant".

yeah it's not like a player has ever challenged a NPC to an arm wressling contest, or tried to haggle with the shopkeep, or perhaps they need to make an attack roll while they got caught up in the gobin raid attacking town, or anything else that might require that blacksmith to have stats

edit: honestly, rather than straight 10's it probably would be better for moddeling them to say basic commoners have a spread of 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9 alongside assigning them a total of +4 and -3 additional modifiers.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

yeah it's not like a player has ever challenged a NPC to an arm wressling contest, or tried to haggle with the shopkeep, or perhaps they need to make an attack roll while they got caught up in the gobin raid attacking town, or anything else that might require that blacksmith to have stats

edit: honestly, rather than straight 10's it probably would be better for moddeling them to say basic commoners have a spread of 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9 alongside assigning them a total of +4 and -3 additional modifiers.

If it becomes relevant, you give them an NPC stat block, as suggested in the DMG. Guard would be appropriate.

The whole point of "commoner" is they are a "don't matter" character, so giving them stats would be a waste of time. As soon as their stats matter, they stop being commoners and become NPCs, and get an appropriate stat block.

 

[Corinnguard]

Any role-playing session is going to have three pillars to prop it up and make it interesting. Combat, Exploration and Social Interaction. NPCs become relevant whenever the party socially interacts with them during their journeys.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Any role-playing session is going to have three pillars to prop it up and make it interesting. Combat, Exploration and Social Interaction. NPCs become relevant whenever the party socially interacts with them during their journeys.

Only if there is combat or skill checks that pose a challenge. And in that case they don't need a whole stat block, it's enough to say that a random merchant is proficent in insight, and therefore the DC to trick them is 12. You can do that on the fly. If all they are going to do is talk, their stats don't matter. If all they are going to do is negotiate, their strength does not matter. If they are attacked and have no defenses, all they need is a wilhelm scream.

 

[Minigiant]

I have no problem with you representing the common NPCs of your created world as, well, we'll call them 10'ers. Straight 10's on all ability scores. But, that cannot, and should not be the popular view. Let's look at 5 common professions:

1. The dwarven blacksmith. You mean to tell me that dwarven blacksmith in each and every town has a 10 strength. They swing a heavy hammer all day and bend iron, yet don't have at least a 14 strength?

12 STR DMG pg 282

Dwarf +2 Str/Wis +2 Con

The goblin street urchin. You know the one, the one that has spent three years running, hiding, sneaking, and pilfering. You mean to tell me they don't have at least a 14 dex?

12 DEX

-2 STR +2 DEX

1. The elven sailor who navigates the ship. You mean after to tell me they can't have a 14 intelligence since, you know, their job is fairly commonplace. We'll throw the human hunter in their too. They don't have a 14 wisdom?

12 DEX, 11 or 12 INT

Elf +2 DEX +1 INT/WIS

The old gnome librarian. Sure, this person has spent a lifetime around knowledge many people might not have access to, but hey, they still only have a 10 intelligence?

Mundane librarian?
12 INT
+2 DEX, +2 INT

magic ones have the higher INT of any of the magic user stat blocks.

The human salesman. You know, the merchant who peddles and hawks the latest fashions and flavors of the kingdom. They can't have a 14 or 16 charisma?

12 Charisma.


Also granted. Each of these NPCs would have experts in their related professions AND tools. And likely Reliable Talent.