D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[DammitVictor]

I don't think it's the addition of new rules to distinguish which traits are genetic and which traits are the result of upbringing. It's more like the pre-existing traits of a given race were categorized into traits you were born with and traits you learned as you were growing up in a particular society.

... that is exactly new rules. They also imply that these categories can be mixed and matched, which are new rules for creating characters.

In terms of game mechanics, I fail to see how they lead to overcomplicated and implausible characters that slow down gameplay or stretch everyone's suspension of disbelief.

You don't see how rules whose purpose is to allow players to make characters that combine any ancestry with any other ancestry, or that allow characters of any ancestry to replace their "cultural" abilities with the cultural abilities of any other heritage are going to be used to combine any ancestry with any other ancestry? People looking for mechanical advantage or just trying to make a "unique" character are going to make their ancestries as ridiculous and meaningless as they made classes in 3.5.

Lastly, this splitting up idea is relatively new. We don't even know if it leads to overcomplicated, implausible characters yet.

It's not a new idea at all. Third-party products have been doing it in Fifth Edition D&D for years, third-party products did it for 3.5, and other fantasy games have been doing it for decades.

 

[Stormonu]

To me, having subspecies make more sense if you have the likes of fixed ASIs and what not; you end up choosing Gray elves (in pre 5E) because they're more inclined towards deep thought (+1 Int) than being dexterous (+1 Dex) as a High Elf.

I'm not fond of it, but races seem to be going in the direction of flavor and away from mechanics, just as the short-lived backgrounds are (which are just becoming an opportunity to grab an extra feat). I wish they were going the other direction, where you got extra racial (and/or background) traits at the likes of 3rd, 5th and 7th level or somesuch.

 

[Micah Sweet]

... that is exactly new rules. They also imply that these categories can be mixed and matched, which are new rules for creating characters.


You don't see how rules whose purpose is to allow players to make characters that combine any ancestry with any other ancestry, or that allow characters of any ancestry to replace their "cultural" abilities with the cultural abilities of any other heritage are going to be used to combine any ancestry with any other ancestry? People looking for mechanical advantage or just trying to make a "unique" character are going to make their ancestries as ridiculous and meaningless as they made classes in 3.5.



It's not a new idea at all. Third-party products have been doing it in Fifth Edition D&D for years, third-party products did it for 3.5, and other fantasy games have been doing it for decades.

You can't control what type of PCs folks want to make, and I'm not interested in trying, particularly if the chosen method to do so is to reduce options. Have a little faith in your fellow humans I say, and be ok with the occasional disappointment in that regard.

 

[Micah Sweet]

To me, having subspecies make more sense if you have the likes of fixed ASIs and what not; you end up choosing Gray elves (in pre 5E) because they're more inclined towards deep thought (+1 Int) than being dexterous (+1 Dex) as a High Elf.

I'm not fond of it, but races seem to be going in the direction of flavor and away from mechanics, just as the short-lived backgrounds are (which are just becoming an opportunity to grab an extra feat). I wish they were going the other direction, where you got extra racial (and/or background) traits at the likes of 3rd, 5th and 7th level or somesuch.

They can go the other direction if you want them to. Just...don't follow WotC's example.

 

[DammitVictor]

You can't control what type of PCs folks want to make, and I'm not interested in trying, particularly if the chosen method to do so is to reduce options. Have a little faith in your fellow humans I say, and be ok with the occasional disappointment in that regard.

In that case, why are you even playing a game with discrete ancestries and classes when there are so many games that would allow to create any character you want, within the parameters of the campaign setting and premise? I mean, honestly, aren't those limitations on your imagination, too?

Limitations. Are. Good. Limitations provide the structure that makes your choices, in character creation and in gameplay, actually have meaning.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

WotC's species don't hold a candle to Level Up's origin system (heritage/culture/background/destiny) IMO. 5.5e is heading in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned.

Good thing you already have the perfect thing you want. But EN Publishing had the freedom to completely overhaul the system. It is a different game.

The 2024 books aren't D&D 5.5. They are 5E, so they aren't free to completely overhaul it. To be compatible, they need to stick to the three elements, Species, Background, and Class, even if they slightly redefine them.

That said, I like a lot of the stuff we've seen in the playtest docs.

 

[Minigiant]

To me, having subspecies make more sense if you have the likes of fixed ASIs and what not; you end up choosing Gray elves (in pre 5E) because they're more inclined towards deep thought (+1 Int) than being dexterous (+1 Dex) as a High Elf.

I'm not fond of it, but races seem to be going in the direction of flavor and away from mechanics, just as the short-lived backgrounds are (which are just becoming an opportunity to grab an extra feat). I wish they were going the other direction, where you got extra racial (and/or background) traits at the likes of 3rd, 5th and 7th level or somesuch.

I feel it's the opposites.

Subspecies are more sensible when you have major generic deviation without enough break from the core species to constitute a new entry.

Like dragonborn who have different colors. Or kobolds who can be winged, draconic, or neither.

I feel the "human with funny hats" happens because TSR, WOTC, and those in their descendants subscribe for low fantasy or at least tameness for PCs. Only the monsters get to be fantastic.

Where are the elves with permanent mirror image glamors?

Where are the dwarves who can turn to stone, metal, gems, and magma and can eat rocks?

Where are the orcs who have primal spirits who can give them increased speed, heighten senses, or claws?

Where are the Lizardfolk who link themselves to crocodiles, chameleons, or dinosaurs to get death spins, invisibility, or thunderous stomps?

 

[Stormonu]

I feel it's the opposites.

Subspecies are more sensible when you have major generic deviation without enough break from the core species to constitute a new entry.

Like dragonborn who have different colors. Or kobolds who can be winged, draconic, or neither.

I feel the "human with funny hats" happens because TSR, WOTC, and those in their descendants subscribe for low fantasy or at least tameness for PCs. Only the monsters get to be fantastic.

Where are the elves with permanent mirror image glamors?

Where are the dwarves who can turn to stone, metal, gems, and magma and can eat rocks?

Where are the orcs who have primal spirits who can give them increased speed, heighten senses, or claws?

Where are the Lizardfolk who link themselves to crocodiles, chameleons, or dinosaurs to get death spins, invisibility, or thunderous stomps?

Those are the reasons I'd like racial abilities to extend into the levels. Your lizardfolk gets a chameleon-like invisibility or camouflage? Sure, pick that ability up at 3rd level. Thunderous stomp? Maybe that's something you can grab at 5th.

If there's a bit of a palette for choices, you don't need a half-dozen elf types. You just need elf, then a list of abilities you can nab. You don't have to be a Kamille lizardfolk for invisibility or from the Dinoborn Clan to get stomp (or get the ability denied because it's too powerful for 1st level), you're just a lizardfolk who took those two abilities and the player can come up with the story how that combination came to be.

I think this how PF handles it, and though it makes character creation a bit longer, if a player can handle picking spells they can handle picking traits. And if they don't want to, there can be (and probably should be) a suggested list.

 

[Minigiant]

Those are the reasons I'd like racial abilities to extend into the levels. Your lizardfolk gets a chameleon-like invisibility or camouflage? Sure, pick that ability up at 3rd level. Thunderous stomp? Maybe that's something you can grab at 5th.

If there's a bit of a palette for choices, you don't need a half-dozen elf types. You just need elf, then a list of abilities you can nab. You don't have to be a Kamille lizardfolk for invisibility or from the Dinoborn Clan to get stomp (or get the ability denied because it's too powerful for 1st level), you're just a lizardfolk who took those two abilities and the player can come up with the story how that combination came to be.

I think this how PF handles it, and though it makes character creation a bit longer, if a player can handle picking spells they can handle picking traits. And if they don't want to, there can be (and probably should be) a suggested list.

I prefer the way 2024 version is doing it with elves. You pick a lineage or legacy or whatever and it hands out a level appropriate feature every so many levels.

So you could have the "traditional" dwarf who just gets more HP and resistance to poison at level 1 and have it evolve to poison immunity and a bonus to STR saves.

Whereas you can have a "forge" dwarf that gets fire resistance and Warhammer Mastery. And then at higher levels they could get fire immunity and a heat aura from their "inner forge."

Then you can have a dwarf that turns into a crazy dragon.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Those are the reasons I'd like racial abilities to extend into the levels. Your lizardfolk gets a chameleon-like invisibility or camouflage? Sure, pick that ability up at 3rd level. Thunderous stomp? Maybe that's something you can grab at 5th.

If there's a bit of a palette for choices, you don't need a half-dozen elf types. You just need elf, then a list of abilities you can nab. You don't have to be a Kamille lizardfolk for invisibility or from the Dinoborn Clan to get stomp (or get the ability denied because it's too powerful for 1st level), you're just a lizardfolk who took those two abilities and the player can come up with the story how that combination came to be.

I think this how PF handles it, and though it makes character creation a bit longer, if a player can handle picking spells they can handle picking traits. And if they don't want to, there can be (and probably should be) a suggested list.

i think you can go both ways with species abilities, it doesn't have to just be one of the other, 'these are the things that any elf can potentially develop' abilities that you can take on level up alongsideside a selection of mutually exclusive 'these are specialised traits only certain groups of elves have developed' subspecies traits,

so maybe any lizardfolk can learn how to use their camoflage, climb speed or tongue lash, but this group who lived in the swamp for ~300 odd years now secrete poison from their skin and that group who have been intermingling with the dragonborn have developed a breath weapon, and there's also the ones who went to the coast who have improved the lizardfolk 'hold breath' ability into full on water breathing.