No love for Oathbound?

There's many things I like about Oathbound in that it's a more alien world, that you can throw anything in.

However I think the core book, is in need of a revision, many of Bastion Press' other products have been revised. Some things need to be done for example, to bring things like Prestige Races in line with things outside of Oathbound. Things like making it more inline with standard magic item creation rules (which grafts work off of) or with Unearthed Aranca's Bloodlines, or even just plain Level Adjustments.
 

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I like Oathbound quite a bit, including the art (except the maps in the core book). It is very alien in feel, especially in comparison to most other game settings. The only ones that it reminds me of are Jorune and, most especially, Talislanta. These settings are all so odd and off-kilter, and I mean that in a good way, that they will only appeal to a limited audience. I think Oathbound is one of those settings that will eventually attain a status along the lines of Tekumel - talked about as being fine examples of out-of-the-ordinary game worlds, but not often played in.
 

Hmmm...good question. Its mostly the "everything included" nature of the setting, i think. Its has bits and pieces of every genre in it. Thats not a big appeal for most D&Ders, i think. Very few of them like a lot of cross-genre material in their D&D. I know their was several parts to it that i just didn't like. Enough that i would have had to ban, retcon, or rewrite too much...so i didn't bother. It has some cool stuff, it has some real stupid stuff. For me it was about 50/50. Not enough to get into it, i'm afraid. This is all based on the "core" book mind you, i haven't seen any of the other books for it.

It definitely has a bit of power creep, but i think that was intentional. Most inter-planar or otherwordly type settings are usually more powerful, as you are almost always playing for higher stakes. Their prestige races were very interesting, but i was quite concerned that they weren't balanced. Some needed to cost more exp, some cost too much. Again, just too much work for me.

Another smaller part is that they did not push it very hard, or at least not hard enough. Most settings have die-hard fans here on Enworld, that long to gush about their favorite parts of their favorite setting. Oathbound really doesn't. It has people that chime in ocassionally, but no rabid fans. The Oathbound folks need to get together and make a concentrated effort to storm these boards or something. :p
 

In addition to being like onions, opinions, and a$$holes, RPG campaigns are like ex-girlfriends. You love them one minute, hate them the next. Down the road you might miss their company, then maybe/eventually you get back together. Someday you might get married, but then again you might remember why you left in the first place and never come back.

As I bring forth my opinion on what has previously been posted I would like to say that while I am disappointed by some of the comments, all of them will be taken into consideration when moving forward with future Oathbound products. As Tom stated, BP does plan on continuing to expand upon Oathbound with future printed products and PDFs, and constructive and insightful comments *will* help us bring you a better campaign world down the road. That said, here are my two cents for this evening …

First off, I find it extremely disturbing that so many gamers in today's market judge a product by their tastes in art. So what if product is well written and original, if you don't like the art then by default the product sucks? Perhaps we should publish RPG products with Sesame Street-style pop-up in the future? Use words in 50pt print like “See Unga chop dwarf!” instead of being creative and grammatically correct? I remember the days when gamers would practically creme their shorts to see an Erol Otus original in the Gen Con Art Gallery, yet in the 21st century if a product's visual stimuli does not tickle a gamer's frontal lobe then it's not worth drek? Art does serve a purpose in RPGs, but it should not rule them with such pig-headed and opinionating bias. Give me a well written product with substandard art any day of the week. If a product helps me more with my game, then who cares if it's pretty or not. Were Oathbound some utterly ugly pile of dung that looks like it was laid out by a one-eyed color blind graphic school drop-out (sorry Jim, had to throw that in there), then I might be less critical of these comments; but the fact of the matter is we get more feedback on how pretty the book is *AND* how well it is written then we do the opposite. It just seems like if someone doesn't like art in a product nowadays they have some odd urge to tell as many people as inhumanly possible how much they think it sucks.

Also, I see many comparisons out there to other campaign worlds, especially Midnight. I own a copy of Midnight (my second copy actually, after the bind broke on the first one), and if you hold it up against all other campaign worlds in the most general of comparisons I'll be the first to admit that it is conceptually impressive like few others. Beyond that, Oathbound and Midnight have very little in common. If you're looking for a dark fantasy, you go with Midnight. If you want a higher-level campaign where you can use any character or race from nearly any game ever created going back to 1st Edition D&D, then you go with Oathbound. If you want high-fantasy with a rich history, you could go with Oathbound *or* Forgotten Realms ... or any other of a half-dozen different games. Direct comparisons, like those outlined in previous posts, are based more on taste than a realistic comparison. Oh, and for the record, copies of the Oathbound hardcover have never been recalled for poor binding.

Like art, comparing one campaign against another is a matter of taste *and* the taste of your players. While I loved Midnight when I bought it, my players had no interest in it. Some thought it was cool, but others had no desire to play it. On the other hand, Oathbound was a world they could resurrect old character and act out their power-hungry fantasies from years gone by. Oathbound is also versatile enough that if I wanted to convert it to a *darker* theme, that would be extremely easy to do. This world is constructed in such a manner that you can bring any race, and class, any monster, or anything else from any book and use it in the game. In an RPG/OGL/d20 culture where everyone has different tastes, buys different books, and wants to play different characters, Oathbound is about the only setting outside of PLANESCAPE that has that to offer. What other world can say that concept is built into the campaign? Few if any. Oh, and did I mention the really good binding on the book?

One other thing that struck a cord with me in the above posts was the whole "plot/medaplot" argument. Come one people, who out there runs a campaign or adventure EXACTLY as it is written. I would say that 97% of all Game Masters change or modify everything they run, whether it is published in DUNGEON or in the back of a campaign book. If I'm wrong and that is not the case, then the creative minds of the RPG community has degraded to a Neanderthal-like level in the past decade. If you don't like the plot then don't bloody use it, but you don’t have to throw away the entire setting for such a minor issue. If you want a campaign world that is laid out for you from beginning to end, with no room for adjustments or creative freedom, written for all possible types of players, races, and plots -- then you're going to have to write it yourself. You should be done in about 20 years if you start tomorrow.

Lastly, the comments regarding the "strange" races has me more than a bit confused. Last time I checked this was a fantasy world and game ... right? I don’t seem to remember that disclaimer on the d20 legal document that said all PC races needed to be one of the “sacred seven” from the PHB. Here is a news flash … if you don’t like the presented races, you don’t have to use them. Use them as monster races or NPCs then. And why is it up to the GM what races he or she doesn’t like or use? Do you *make* the people that sit at your gaming table play a specific type of race or class? Unless you’re playing with 4-6 clones of yourself, everyone is going to want to play something different. Shooting down Oathbound because YOU don’t want to play an asherake or dover doesn’t mean that someone at your gaming table feels the same way. On the same token, how many players out there that would love concept of Oathbound may never get the chance because their Game Master doesn’t like the art, metaplot, or races? The truth of the matter is that can be said for many campaign worlds, and it is sad to hear that such “campaign bigotry” is so common.

Everything aside, it all comes down to a matter of taste. For my money, the Oathbound campaign setting as a whole is one of the most *configurable* campaigns out there. With a bit of work you could take nearly any published module, DUNGEON adventure, or home-brewed quest and transport it into this setting. If you don’t want to play in the Oathbound campaign for a *legitimate* reason, that is your choice. However, many of the reasons in the above posts, to me, don’t hold enough water to really criticize the setting beyond the call of personal preference. I would take more credence in comments that said, “ … my group tried Oathbound for awhile then went back to the Forgotten Realms,” or, “… my players wanted to play Dawnforge instead, so we haven’t tried it yet.” over comments like, “I’ve never played Oathbound because I dislike the boney-looking art and strange races.” In the real world it is best to criticize something *after* experiencing it, and not in spite of it.

*************************************
Kevin W. Melka
Bastion Press, Creative Director
http://www.bastionpress.com
http://www.oathbound.net
kmelka@bastionpress.com


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EvilBeeker said:
First off, I find it extremely disturbing that so many gamers in today's market judge a product by their tastes in art. So what if product is well written and original, if you don't like the art then by default the product sucks? Perhaps we should publish RPG products with Sesame Street-style pop-up in the future?

That's not a very good attitude to have. Reminds me of when the old president of Paizo threw a hissy fit because people were complaining about the Annuals and stopped putting them out altogether. The way to fix something that is being complained about is not to make it worse.

Obviously, art is very subjective. That said, obviously, lots of people don't like the "flensed look" that appeared in many bastion products.

If it becomes clear that lots of people feel this way, you have a choice: appeal to those people or stick with your vision/artist and accept you will turn some people off. That any two people will view the art differently will not change the fact that some (many?) people don't like it. That is something you will have to deal with.

Give me a well written product with substandard art any day of the week. If a product helps me more with my game, then who cares if it's pretty or not.

RPGs are about brining gamer's ideas to life. Art can be an important catalyst in that process. I would not discard it so easily.

Direct comparisons, like those outlined in previous posts, are based more on taste than a realistic comparison.

The topic of the thread was why, when it possesses many qualities that gamers would nominally like, Oathbound isn't talked up much. People answered, giving their honest reasons, as personal as they may be. I don't see that you have a place to begrude them that. I don't think anyone expects your setting (or any other) to be all things to all people.

One other thing that struck a cord with me in the above posts was the whole "plot/medaplot" argument.

I personally don't see metaplot as a problem in Oathbound. Those who do clearly need to get a time machine and follow vampire for a few years before its reincarnation. Or try to think back to when their character got goofed up by the time of troubles in FR.

Lastly, the comments regarding the "strange" races has me more than a bit confused. Last time I checked this was a fantasy world and game ... right? I don’t seem to remember that disclaimer on the d20 legal document that said all PC races needed to be one of the “sacred seven” from the PHB.

Again, this is not a point I sympathize with. I think that odd races is Oathbound's selling point. If I specifically wanted a game that featured or accomodated odd race, Oathbound is a settig I would consider for that reason. But one man's junk is another man's treasure, and you can't really do much about the fact that there are a lot of people out there who like a comfortable and familiar pallette of races. It's their opinion and they have the right to express it. There is no objectivity and I don't think anyone claimed there was.
 

PJ-Mason said:
The Oathbound folks need to get together and make a concentrated effort to storm these boards or something. :p

I think that is because we tend to post OB threads in the OB forum over at Mortality (which is being moved soon- see Kevin's sig for where). Though I have to say that this thread has definitely brought out some of them.

And it is true compairing Midnight (orcs! we are all going to die horribly) to Oathbound (I can climb walls now, cool) is like apples to oranges.
 

Psion said:
If it becomes clear that lots of people feel this way, you have a choice: appeal to those people or stick with your vision/artist and accept you will turn some people off. That any two people will view the art differently will not change the fact that some (many?) people don't like it. That is something you will have to deal with.

The topic of the thread was why, when it possesses many qualities that gamers would nominally like, Oathbound isn't talked up much. People answered, giving their honest reasons, as personal as they may be. I don't see that you have a place to begrude them that. I don't think anyone expects your setting (or any other) to be all things to all people.

I want to highlight the above because I think these two items are the key.

As I stated in an earlier post, I think Oathbound is the best d20 setting out there. Though I don't have a problem with it, people clearly have issues with the art. To some people the art is what inspires them to get into a setting.

Kevin, since you work for Bastion, you obviously should have a positive view about Oathbound (and there were many in this thread who agree with this assessment). Don't feel like you have to defend the work against people who disagree (especially on matters of taste, such as art and races) - you certainly don't.
 

While I certainly applaud the efforts of Evilbeeker & tf360 to wade into this debate, I think your insistance that "art," and by logical extension design, is just too personal and subjective to pay much attention to is extremely disappointing. This coming from a creative director is somewhat shocking even.

While I agree that the writing of a product needs to be solid, you just can't dismiss design & illustration as being secondary. You really need the total package if your a d20 company and expect to make a big splash. From my vantage point, that is one of the things that has haunted both Oathbound and BP product as a whole.

Personally, I have bought several BP products including 2 of the Oathbound products which, as I stated above, I sold. I'm sorry that you feel so inclined to dismiss our criticisms, but it seems that you don't want to hear those types of comments. It's certainly not my place to tell you to grow thicker skin regarding the look of your product, or to be more open minded when customers voice their opinions.

Still, good luck with the new additions to the OB line. I certainly hope you do well with them.
 

I don't think that my post in any way stated that art is something that should be outright dismissed as unimportant in a role-playing product. In fact, I believe that cover art is one of the most important selling points of a product. What's the first thing that a prospective gamer sees when he picks a book up off the shelf? It's the cover. If the cover appeals, he's going to take a closer look. If it's not appealing, he'll leave it on the shelf and move onto the next product. Interior illustration and layout are important; however my point is that the book's content seems to have to be reduced to little more than a footnote in comparison to the interior art.

I realize that the sinewy look of the core book and the first supplement did not appeal to a good number of people, but if you take a look at the later products, you'll notice a departure from that look towards more realistic looking art. The look and feel of Oathbound art from the core rulebook up to Wildwood, the next Oathbound release is significantly different. The cover art for Wildwood does not even resemble the cover art from the first book so the notion that fair criticism of our art has been ignored does not represent a truly informed opinion. I am more than willing to listen to criticism and make changes when appropriate; however, there is no art form that is going to be universally accepted or liked by everyone. Even Rembrandt has his critics.
 

Yes, the forums are moving. Still hosted by Mortality, but, in their entire separate location.......

Like Psion said, on art, one man says 'who needs art' while others say 'we NEED art'. Well, I can see both sides.

Art is what initially got me into D&D in the first place. A friend of mine was hammering me to play D&D, and I kept brushing him aside. Finally, I broke down, and tried it. At that session, I saw an Elmore. Hooked from that point on. But, the Elmore wasn't in a book.

In my opinion, when Oathbound was in the concept stage, it appears that BP wanted to have a different style of art to stand out with. Most everyone else was drawing regular, standard, day to day, can find in most any book art. I think they have a very unique art style. I DO agree on the maps, they could be better, but, they are still functional.

Art to me, doesn't matter too much. The Elmore I saw wasn't in a book, it was a picture on a wall. I care most, for border art that imposes too much. The border art that stomps all over the content on the page. You can listen to just about any Mortality Radio show, to know my tastes in art.....
But, I don't have issue with anyone who feels art IS important. Thats how THEY feel.

Like has been said already, OB is a way to have ANYTHING in your game. Some say SOME Mongoose stuff is unbalanced, for instance. In OB, IF you feel that way about product X from Mongoose, then, you can STILL use it.

You can easily drop in any 3rd party source. City books, regional sourcebooks from most publishers. You can easily stick Hamunaptra in a realm of your choice, where, perhaps, for whatever reason, the Fowl act as those egyptian deities, but the populace think it's actually a true deity they are worshiping.

ANY dungeon crawl can be dropped in.

Well, enough of the total portability of OB.

The heavy handedness of the adventures, IMO, was necessary, in order for BP to 'teach' the feel of the setting. New DM's, who have never played PlaneScape, or Ravenloft, probably needed that extra direction, in order to show how the setting feel shoud be. One can easily use any Necromancer Games or most any other module with ease in OB.

I look at OB as a Planescape/Ravenloft type of cross. The PS side, is essentially, where ALOT more than normal goes. One can easily sit at a bar in say, Sigil. In walks a Nabassu, and sits right down next to you, orders his very different than yours beverage. One is not trapped in Sigil/other planes, but, it can be difficult to get around none the less.
Like PS, OB has realms (planes in PS) associated with it. You get the grit of Sigil, the exposure to a multitude of realms, each different, similar to the planes.....
The Ravenloft aspect, to me, is the 'prison' feel. OB is as much as a prison, as Ravenloft was. The DM is the one who decides on how long you are there in OB, as in RL.
The sweet irony, though, is that when one goes about the OB setting in the recommended way, entering your group at average 7th level, they get wonderful boons/gifts from the Fowl who brought them there. So, on one hand, you have the 'we gotta get out of this place', but, you also have a PC who can suddenly fly. If, perhaps, cutting ones own kingdom out is difficult at 'home', it's can be much more attainable in OB.

Intrigue. Man, is OB full of it. Using the 'carve a kingdom' from above....
The getting the kingdom might be pretty easy. The keeping it part might not be so easy. Alliances come and go in OB. Daily, sometimes. There you are, with your 2000 acre kingdom, all alone in the wilderness. Allies will help you, if you seek them, or, if your kingdom suits their needs. But, those same allies might be sieging your gates next week. It's every bit as cut throat as say Freeport.

The races. Honestly, I did a double take on a few of them myself, when I first saw OB at GenCon 02. I have a habit of going to race/class sections first when i get a new book. Then, after I THOROUGHLY read the entire book, I saw where these races are most welcome. My fav is the Asherake. Lean, mean (looking), I can see my group buffing for three rounds when their first Asherake is seen in the distance, heading their way. When he stops for directions, well, I can hear the sigh of relief/terror. Relief that this dreadfully powerful looking creature didn't attack them, and in terror, as they knowingly blew half or more of their useful spells for that day.

Oathbound obviously isn't for everybody. If you are entrenched in your fav CS, and have an investment, it's hard to look at much else.

I find it a wonderful CS, full of diversity. As heavy handed, or as free form as one might like. As gritty as one can imagine. And, as 'drag and drop' as you can get.
 

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