No More Massive Tomes of Rules

[Thomas Shey]

But as I said, you start with the result you want to see. If you do that you can't end up with a ridiculous result.

Only if your perception of it, especially on the fly, isn't more ridiculous than you think it is.

 

[pemerton]

Let's say your group of ER docs is trying to sneak into a warehouse because they know there's an injured fellow in there being held by criminals and he may die if they don't get to him (since presumably since its a medical drama RPG there's a lot of mechanics involving what happens if you don't get to people in time and various complications related to that, unless its entirely focused on the interpersonal elements).

Now, you've got three people trying to sneak across 50' of cluttered space to get to the back door of the warehouse, then get into the warehouse, all without being seen or making enough noise to attract attention.

Assuming you actually care enough to get dice involved in the first place (because if you don't, the question was moot right out the door), a bunch of questions your basic system isn't going to be set up for have to be asked. How many rolls are going to be needed? Do they each roll individually? What does a failure mean? Is there a recovery chance after failure, and does your system have any built in matter-of-degree that helps here? Is there any rolls involved on the other side?

There are a lot of ways the combination of answering those questions can go off the rails; its not an uncommon place for designs to produce really bad results, and that's in cases where someone hasn't had to make this kind of decision on the fly, with a core resolution method that isn't really designed by itself to handle it.

I think this still means you're assuming a set of needs that just isn't there a lot of time. Frankly, it kind of strikes me as a little D&D-centric as phrased, far as that goes.

I feel there is some ironic tension between these two quotes.

All the worries about how to adjudicate the sneaking doctors - which factor in the 50' of distance, worry about opposed rolls and number of rolls, etc - seem to be based on a D&D-esque (or similar style of RPG) paradigm.

If the question of how to resolve the sneaking is located within some non-"simulationist" framework - eg a stakes-based approach to simple vs extended conflicts, with rules for generating the required target number(s) - then the general framework answers the questions! (I'm thinking of HeroWars/Quest and MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic as examples here.)

 

[Thomas Shey]

I feel there is some ironic tension between these two quotes.

All the worries about how to adjudicate the sneaking doctors - which factor in the 50' of distance, worry about opposed rolls and number of rolls, etc - seem to be based on a D&D-esque (or similar style of RPG) paradigm.

If the question of how to resolve the sneaking is located within some non-"simulationist" framework - eg a stakes-based approach to simple vs extended conflicts, with rules for generating the required target number(s) - then the general framework answers the questions! (I'm thinking of HeroWars/Quest and MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic as examples here.)

Sure. I don't think lumping D&D and the other games I was thinking of together is particularly useful, but if you want to accuse me of thinking in a relatively trad paradigm in these posts I'll plead guilty. However I'll disagree that Cortex+ is going to automatically answer the question if its not designed upfront specifically to do it; there's nothing about Cortex that automatically avoids the same kind of failure states most other games tend to with stealth.

 

[pemerton]

there's nothing about Cortex that automatically avoids the same kind of failure states most other games tend to with stealth.

I'm only commenting on MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic: use an action including Invisibility and/or Covert to establish an appropriate Asset, or in some context perhaps to eliminate a Scene Distinction.

I think the "failure state for stealth" really depends on a very granular approach to action resolution.

 

[Reynard]

Only if your perception of it, especially on the fly, isn't more ridiculous than you think it is.

I don't understand this statement in the context of the discussion. We aren't talking about modeling anything. We are talking about setting stakes and consequences within a specific one off context.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm only commenting on MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic: use an action including Invisibility and/or Covert to establish an appropriate Asset, or in some context perhaps to eliminate a Scene Distinction.

I think the "failure state for stealth" really depends on a very granular approach to action resolution.

I will give you that if you're dealing with full blown task resolution with no interim steps you have a point. I'd argue that's not usually even Cortex, and given the particular topic at hand, yes I was not assuming super powers.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't understand this statement in the context of the discussion. We aren't talking about modeling anything. We are talking about setting stakes and consequences within a specific one off context.

Everyone is modelling something, even if its in terms of expected results and consequences.

 

[Reynard]

Everyone is modelling something, even if its in terms of expected results and consequences.

I disagree. In the example we don't care about modeling stealth in a game that has no rules for it. We are getting to some potential result. The difference is in the latter we don't have to try and kludge together a set of rules about cover and lighting and perception, we just have to set a difficulty and stakes.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I disagree. In the example we don't care about modeling stealth in a game that has no rules for it. We are getting to some potential result. The difference is in the latter we don't have to try and kludge together a set of rules about cover and lighting and perception, we just have to set a difficulty and stakes.

I've gone around this circle as many times as I'm going to, thanks.

 

[Dire Bare]

I would buy that. I’d buy it even more if it came in however many more pages the same content needs for digest size, and epub. But even at standard size, thst would make me happy.

Five Torches Deep? That might hit for ya, its been a while since I've checked it out, but it was an OSR style hack of 5E.