log in or register to remove this ad

 

No PvP vs. Stealing loot

The group agrees no PvP & party loot, what taking loot would fall under party vs. party conflict?

  • Taking any loot without sharing is PvP.

    Votes: 24 51.1%
  • Any the party missed / wouldn't get is okay not to share (random pickpocket, missed hidden, etc.)

    Votes: 21 44.7%
  • When the rogue is taking the risk alone, anything is okay (looting while scouting, etc.)

    Votes: 12 25.5%
  • Stealing from fallen foes and other group endevours is okay.

    Votes: 1 2.1%
  • Stealing from party members is okay

    Votes: 3 6.4%
  • Other looting options I didn't think of is okay (please explain in comments).

    Votes: 4 8.5%

  • Total voters
    47

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Group agrees no PvP during Session 0, and the characters are doing party loot. What level of "rogue steals loot" starts to impinge on that? Any stealing at all? Taking treasure the party (likely) wouldn't get? Taking loot from creatures the party defeats? Pickpocketing the party? It's all okay because PvP is explicitly combat?

This really is hypothetical, no need for advice on how to work it out.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Shroompunk Warlord

Archdruid of the Warp Zones
Supporter
Cheating and stealing from the other PCs is PvP.

Simple rule of thumb: if the table contract doesn't allow me to cut your throat while you're sleeping, it doesn't allow you to do anything that would justify it.

I have a laissez faire attitude toward PvP in my games-- I expect my players to create characters that can work within an adventuring party and specifically with each other, and then if that breaks down, it's jungle rules. I won't stop the thief from stealing extra loot, I won't stop the dwarf from shortening the thief in his sleep, and I won't stop the Paladin from smiting either or both of them as his Code deems necessary, and I won't stop the monsters from eating them when they're bloodied and shorthanded in the middle of the dungeon.
 
Last edited:

I don't allow PvP in any form. I run long campaigns, and have players who have been with me for nearly two decades. I don't want to lose any of these people through PvP action.

I've run and played in campaigns where PvP was allowed, and the PvP aspect never added anything, and always detracted from the game.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Group agrees no PvP during Session 0, and the characters are doing party loot. What level of "rogue steals loot" starts to impinge on that? Any stealing at all? Taking treasure the party (likely) wouldn't get? Taking loot from creatures the party defeats? Pickpocketing the party? It's all okay because PvP is explicitly combat?

This really is hypothetical, no need for advice on how to work it out.

It is actually very simple: "party loot" means everything belongs to the whole PC group. Any exception breaks the rule.

PvP is not only about combat, it's going against other players. I do not believe that players who decided to rule against attacking each other with merrily accept being robbed, they are both hostile acts which cause a player's loss, and can easily lead to erosion of trust, dominance (one PC will always be better that the others at doing that) and vengeance.
 

Group agrees no PvP during Session 0, and the characters are doing party loot. What level of "rogue steals loot" starts to impinge on that? Any stealing at all? Taking treasure the party (likely) wouldn't get? Taking loot from creatures the party defeats? Pickpocketing the party? It's all okay because PvP is explicitly combat?

This really is hypothetical, no need for advice on how to work it out.
From my house rules documentation:
Having A Thief In The Party

NOTE: Being a thief doesn't give you special rights to steal treasure that would otherwise become group property. In other words, just because your character CAN steal things from treasure chests that he opens while other PC's aren't looking, doesn't mean he has special permission to do so. It certainly doesn't mean you get to have your actions kept private or secret from either players or PC's any more than the PC's in another room will have their actions kept private and secret from the other players and PC's until such time as they inform other party members what they were doing.

Other players and their PC's have every right and every justification in expecting that as PC's adventure together that everyone shares in ALL treasure. Stealing from fellow party members in that way basically makes you or your PC a jerk for no other reason than you CAN be. I don't much hold with that.

If you want your character to effectively steal from your fellow PC's then you ought to have SOLID roleplaying motivation to do so beyond, “I feel like it,” or, “The opportunity came up and I took it.” The reason for that is when other players and PC's discover this kind of behavior then as a rule it disrupts the game. It annoys players. It annoys PC's. It derails the ongoing flow of the game while this side-issue is then dealt with. And most especially, it virtually never ends well for anyone when it comes up. There are bad feelings both among characters and players.

For this reason, such behavior is directly discouraged. Not forbidden, but I personally won't permit casual theft within the party without making the perfectly understandable assumption that this is a roleplaying road you have chosen quite deliberately. If you do it, be warned: You are taking very, VERY deliberate action. I will not conceal it during regular play. Trying to get around it by passing notes to me won't be allowed. Other players at the table will know at the very least. If you DO have reasonable motivations then it had best be good enough to convince ME to permit it and for other players to not be sufficiently upset about it to make a stink. Only then will I enable you to perhaps just keep it secret from other players.

Even so, I will not stand in the way of other players or their characters discovering what's happening. That's YOUR problem as a player. If you do this then YOU had best be prepared to dazzle with your roleplaying skills and smooth the otherwise justifiably ruffled feathers of players. My only role in it as DM will be to keep it from being disruptive to the game. If everyone is still having fun AND keeping it in-character then we're all cool. But you WILL be thrown under the bus with the first sign of it being a problem. DO NOT DO THIS LIGHTLY because the game in general will not be sacrificed to keep YOU satisfied with this action.

I've repeated elsewhere – nobody has a right to be a jerk in this game. Nobody gets to use, “I'm just playing my class,” or, “I'm just being true to my character,” as ANY kind of excuse for being an ass. Thief PC's have no inherent right nor special privilege to help themselves to extra treasure at the expense of the other PC's just because they often have greater opportunity to do so. The fact that the other PC's are accepting of a thief class PC in the party does not mean that, “they get what they deserve/ask for,” or, “they should have expected it,” as far as losing treasure to a PC thief.

Analogy: Stealing someone's french fries at lunch is not a crime. Often it can be funny. But sometimes it ISN'T funny – like when that person is hungry and wanted to eat their own fries. Then it IS a problem. It becomes YOUR problem – a problem which YOU created. I have no obligation to help you out of that jam except what's necessary to end the disagreement and get the game back on a smooth course. Exile of the thief PC which would require the player to roll up a new character is probably the best outcome a player would then have any right to expect. Harsher, in-game response by PC's is certainly possible. Don't put yourself in that position. Don't put other players in that undesirable position. Most of all – don't disrupt the game doing this when you have been given a vigorous, emphatic warning not to do so.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I'd say that, absent table agreement itherwise, taking and concealing things that would, absent such actions, become party knowledge/possessions in a straightfirward way counts as PvP. In which case my (shamelessly stolen) PvP rule applies: the target of the action says what happens.
 


ccs

40th lv DM
I don't allow PvP in any form. I run long campaigns, and have players who have been with me for nearly two decades. I don't want to lose any of these people through PvP action.

You really expect me to believe that people who've played together for 20 years are suddenly going to quit your game if there's even minor forms of PvP (stealing loot)?
In 20 years you could get married, get divorced, raise kids, earn assorted degrees & complete some careers. And yet you keep showing up to play make believe elves with each other & would throw that away when rogues do rogue things, etc.....
Sure.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
You really expect me to believe that people who've played together for 20 years are suddenly going to quit your game if there's even minor forms of PvP (stealing loot)?
In 20 years you could get married, get divorced, raise kids, earn assorted degrees & complete some careers. And yet you keep showing up to play make believe elves with each other & would throw that away when rogues do rogue things, etc.....
Sure.

I suspect @Jd Smith1 knows the players at that table well enough to have a better sense for that than you do. Also, you seem to have missed this part of the post:

I've run and played in campaigns where PvP was allowed, and the PvP aspect never added anything, and always detracted from the game.

Which is more than a good enough reason, aside from the specific table and players.

As for me, I ask for characters who are at least "willing to be heroes." There hasn't been PvP fighting at any table I've run, but there's been a little light pilfering played mostly for laughs (which was paid back, IIRC, without the other character/s knowing it had happened). The extent to which PvP is compatible with "willing to be heroes" is left as an exercise for the interested student, but I'd be inclined to say it's at least mostly incompatible.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You really expect me to believe that people who've played together for 20 years are suddenly going to quit your game if there's even minor forms of PvP (stealing loot)?
In 20 years you could get married, get divorced, raise kids, earn assorted degrees & complete some careers. And yet you keep showing up to play make believe elves with each other & would throw that away when rogues do rogue things, etc.....
Sure.
I see you've never seen long term friends melt down over an imagined slight, much less something more intentional. There are people that are my friends that I absolutely will not play with outside of very narrow circumstances because they get "bored" and blow up games. I do this so that we can remain friends.
 

Yep. While I don't think most players would care about that 75gp ring the rogue randomly decided to pick pocket from the snooty noble, grabbing a ring of protection from a felled opponent before anyone else can call dibs or even discuss it is taking an unfair share. That's definitely not playing well with others. The "it's what my character would do" generally shreds like paper in those situations.

As a DM, these days I'd generally intervene with a few words about treasure division. When I was younger, I'd probably have ensured something terrible happened to the offending PC in short order.

PvP is not only about combat, it's going against other players. I do not believe that players who decided to rule against attacking each other with merrily accept being robbed, they are both hostile acts which cause a player's loss, and can easily lead to erosion of trust, dominance (one PC will always be better that the others at doing that) and vengeance.
 

BrokenTwin

Explorer
I was torn on voting for the When the rogue is taking the risk alone, anything is okay (looting while scouting, etc.) option. On one hand, I agree with the idea that if a player takes on additional risk towards their character, there should be additional reward. On the other hand, I find standing by that opinion encourages negative behaviors in my thief players, where they deliberately leave the group behind to race forward and take loot for themselves.
 

You really expect me to believe that people who've played together for 20 years are suddenly going to quit your game if there's even minor forms of PvP (stealing loot)?
In 20 years you could get married, get divorced, raise kids, earn assorted degrees & complete some careers. And yet you keep showing up to play make believe elves with each other & would throw that away when rogues do rogue things, etc.....
Sure.

I didn't expect you to believe (because I was not aware you existed, and am still not convinced that you do) because this is not about you.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
It's considered gross among people with whom I play so people don't do it. We put that in the PVP column, so the target determines the outcome. The exception is a sort of "nod toward thievery" where the rogue "steals" something, but it ends up back in the party fund by some entertaining and convoluted means later on. This effectively just becomes flavor.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
The second option - missed loot/wouldn't get - is one of those options I think a lot of people might divide up. Missed loot isn't very different from taking loot without sharing. It's something the thief has found and not revealed and could be substantial. The random pick pocket is a bit different and less likely to net much loot - mostly pocket change on your typical PC scale.
 

I recently had this come up. The party rogue grabbed an item that he saw and pocketed it without the other characters seeing. The players just laughed.

If it's a problem at any given table, or if the participants think it will be, then I'd simply say that it's not allowed. Best to avoid any possible conflicts among the players.
 


I was torn on voting for the When the rogue is taking the risk alone, anything is okay (looting while scouting, etc.) option. On one hand, I agree with the idea that if a player takes on additional risk towards their character, there should be additional reward. On the other hand, I find standing by that opinion encourages negative behaviors in my thief players, where they deliberately leave the group behind to race forward and take loot for themselves.

In which case, said rogue is far from help when bad things happen. shrug

I don't allow PvP, largely because my group mainly consists of teens, and some of them wouldn't react well/would take it too far. However, we also don't do the party loot thing -- although there are times when nobody needs anything or something just can't be evenly divided so we wait until getting back to town and selling it to divvy up the money -- with the person carting it getting a bigger slice of the pie, if carting space is an issue.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Voted for a few options, and also for "other" as there's no choice for "anything goes".

You do what you gonna do. Consequences* will do what they gonna do. Life goes on. Keep it in character.

Besides, odds are that sooner or later the thief's gonna die anyway just through the normal run of play, and we can loot it then. :)

* - picking up and flipping over the party thief every now and then and then shaking vigourously to see what unexpected things fall out is almost a time-honoured tradition around here. :)

Reminds me of a character I played ages ago where for some reason the party decided I was the expendable trap finder and monster bait. I was a Gnome, thus easily pick-up-and-throwable, so SOP became open the door, throw the Gnome in, close the door and wait either until they heard shredding or I walked back out.

For a while I absolutely cleaned up - figuring that if they're gonna put all the risk on me I'm gonna make it worth my while, I'd skim off about 1/3 of whatever was in the room then walk out and give the all-clear.

Then they threw me in a room that had a monster in it. End of Gnome.
 

ccs

40th lv DM
I didn't expect you to believe (because I was not aware you existed, and am still not convinced that you do) because this is not about you.

1) Congrats! You've learned something new today: My existence.
2) Everything is about me. You just don't realize it because I don't generally make it known.
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
 

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top