No Random treasure !?!?...

[Vanuslux]

Here's my point: who decides that say, glauives are less common than longswords? They certainly wern't less common hiostorically, nor is there some notation saying "this weapon is rare" in the book, so who? That's right, the guy sitting behind the GM's screen. Don't take your responsibility, and try to fob it off on the player.

I see this sort of reasoning used all to often to justify screwing over a player. If you want to screw over a player, that's one thing; but don't try to deny that it's your decision to do so.

I think the ratio of longswords to glaives is less about GMs trying to screw over their players and more about the fact that because too many players and GMs don't diversify their weapon choices...they have one or two weapons they see as statistically optimal and have a hard time seeing why anyone would use anything else. I remember in 2nd edition it was next to impossible for me to find a player that didn't equip his PC with a bastard sword if his character's class was proficient in it. I don't even remember why everyone thought they were so great.

 

[Nadaka]

Yeah, cranking out a random table of treaqsure at a given level shouldn't be difficult at all.



What's useless about the pillowcase of endless shrimp? The party doesn't have to worry about getting iron rations any more for one; also makes it easier when the want to throw a party in the dungeon; hors d'oeurves in a jiffy!

I never really made much use of random treasure myself; I'd always rereoll on the tables until something I felt was appropriate came up. I don't like the idea of stocking dungeons with everything the players want, but levels for the different items makes it a lot easier to figure out when to pass out certain items, which was definitely NOT the case in 2e and other early editions.

You got it wrong. The pillowcase does not produce an endless supply of shrimp. It converts shrimp into endless shrimp by magically separating the head and tail of any shrimp placed within. Quite a time saving device while cooking large amounts of shrimp.

 

[Henry]

I remember in 2nd edition it was next to impossible for me to find a player that didn't equip his PC with a bastard sword if his character's class was proficient in it. I don't even remember why everyone thought they were so great.

Because it was like having a greatsword and a longsword in one weapon. One handed it was longsword damage; two-handed it could do 2d8 vs. large creatures, versus the 3d6 for the tw-handed sword. So, an average of one pt of damage less, all for dropping your shield and using the second hand. That's why it had its popularity.

That doesn't make any sense. The DM presents the world, the player plays in it.

Conversely, a DM without players has a novel without protagonists, nor any readers. One needs the other equally, and a world where both players and DM can both contribute story and content is a truly beautiful thing. I could point to Sepulchrave's "Tales of Wyre" Story hour on these forums as a great example of that.

 

[Spinachcat]

I rolled up a Gygaxian dungeon for fun using the AD&D DMG tables and I built the fluff based on the crazy random results.

I kept getting bandits and giant rats. A huge chamber with 31 giant rats failed all its treasure rolls, except for magic items. And it got two armors, +4 Splint and +5 Plate. Imagine that! 31 Rats with magic armor? I never would have put those two together without a random chart. First, the encounter is unbalanced for the number of enemies and second, the treasure far too great for heroes of their level.

So I changed the results....NOT!

Instead, we now have the legend of twin kings who wore enchanted armor and smashed their way unscathed in any battle. These kings devolved into insanity in their last days and began worshipping a forgotten god of pestilence. Now their tomb is guarded forever by breeding pits of vicious rodents the size of pitbulls.

In fact, the rats often leave the fortress at night and hunt Ogres out in the badlands (yeah, I rolled Ogres as the terrain monster). The PCs will find gnawed Ogre skeletons, freshly killed without a scrap of meat on them.

Dare you disturb the scions of a diseased god? More importantly, can you get to the prize before the rival bandit gang gets there first?

 

[pr1]

Conversely, a DM without players has a novel without protagonists, nor any readers. One needs the other equally, and a world where both players and DM can both contribute story and content is a truly beautiful thing. I could point to Sepulchrave's "Tales of Wyre" Story hour on these forums as a great example of that.

First, I don't want my game to be a like a novel or story with players. I want it to be a game.

Second, you can take your player's advice, but the DM arbitrates the world. So it's not a semantic question about who controls the world. The buck stops there. In my view, in my games, it my obligation, not just desire, to not just give players whatever they want. They get what they get. Some of it's random. The mid-range stuff that's neither too good nor too bad I might throw in, and they're free to try to buy whatever they want (not that easy) or locate some sort of side (like mugging an npc) to get whatever else they want.

 

[Spatula]

Randomly generated magic items are not always cool. Especially, for instance, if you happen to randomly generate an item that a player's character can't use.

Yes. And? The downside to the unexpected is that it is sometimes a disappointment. Sometimes you get an awesome gift that you didn't even know you wanted, sometimes you get tube socks. And sometimes you get something that doesn't seem particularly useful, but your imagination and/or circumstances prove you wrong.

As I think I've said earlier in the thread, random generation doesn't work with the parcel system in the DMG. You're going to have to give more items to the players since some of them will be sold/disenchanted.

 

[Tao]

I have a feeling that someone will come out with random treasure tables before long - either WotC or a third party under the GSL.

While not a "random treasure table", I plan on putting together a book (called "The Trophy Hunter's Guidebook") which will include suggested treasure parcels for every monster in the MM, as well as some new feats and character building options for Dungeoneering focused players.

 

[The Little Raven]

I want it to be a game.

A game without players is just masturbation, because you're only playing with yourself.

 

[jdrakeh]

Yes. And?

Your earlier statement was phrased to say that random item generation explicitly produces awesome results. Even here you suggest that it usually produces awesome results. I just wanted to point out that neither of these assertions are the universal truths you purport them to be.

 

[AllisterH]

re: Weapon Choice

The reason why everyone picked bastard sword/longsword in 1e/2e was due to the treasure table. The random treasure table highly favoured longsword rather than Bohemian ear-spoon. Heh, as you can see, even in 1e/2e, the players were looking in the DMG and adjusting their character on what was contained.


re: Random treasure table
Um, this may sound weird, but people do realize that 4E easily supports BOTH random and tailored lists? In fact, I think the intent of the rules IS to have the players get what they want AND the DMs to get the fun of surprising their players

In the course of a level, a 5 person party gains 1xL+4, 1xL+3, 1xL+2, 1xL+1 magic items and the cash equivalent of two magic items of their level.

You can easily roll a random result for the Level+4 item and be assured that the players won't immediately hock it and yet give out magic items that they want/need.

Seriously, the 4E magic item reward system gives the best of both worlds. I'm pretty sure Spatula is wrong in his assertion that random treasure doesn't work with 4E.