No secrets can be kept due to Consult Oracle?

[Starfox]

The theme of failed/blocked rituals in 4E is very much that you get to know you are blocked before finishing; you don't need to expend the full investment of time and money just to get "dunno".

 

[Garthanos]

Anything that can be revealed by magic can be hidden deeper thereby its an arms race.

 

[CapnZapp]

Is it just me, or does the Consult Oracle ritual basically make it impossible to keep any secrets once anyone can cast the dang ritual?

That's high-level D&D for you.

This game has always come across as being written by somebody hating having to make actual investigations in his game, taking away time from, well, combat.

Luckily these rituals were bumped up in level in 4E.

 

[CapnZapp]

Anything that can be revealed by magic can be hidden deeper thereby its an arms race.

Yeah.

But arms races are ridiculous and tiresome.

Much better to remove the reason for people wearing stupid hats of non-detection, for example, than to invent the damn hats in the first place, I say.

That is, make the rituals unreliable to allow the DM to remain in control.

 

[Mesh Hong]

In my experience, divinations are useless. The DM will only give out the information he wants to... so the only time divinations are useful is when they are a plot device to send you on your way to an adventure.

This is a blunt, cynical, and highly pessimistic attitude that is an absolute slurr against any DM with a half decent or complicated plot where mysteries beyond the dreams of PCs are woven subtley behind a diffuse cloud of obsfucation.

The fact that it is also 100% accurate is mere coincidence!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is a blunt, cynical, and highly pessimistic attitude that is an absolute slurr against any DM with a half decent or complicated plot where mysteries beyond the dreams of PCs are woven subtley behind a diffuse cloud of obsfucation.

The fact that it is also 100% accurate is mere coincidence!

I can understand the sentiment, but if you look at it a bit more deeply its not really that much of an issue. The ritual costs 3600 gp to cast. The DM should be saying to himself "OK, the party can learn some things for 3600 gp OR they can learn them more cheaply some other way, but that won't be so easy...".

Plus I think there are some fairly decent limits on the Oracles already. The information has to be known by a "creature". This probably excludes things like gods, primordials, etc. You aren't going to learn the deep secrets of the Multiverse just by casting a ritual or two.

The Oracles can only answer very straightforward questions. First you need to know how to ask the right question. The answer may not be all that useful either, as other posters have pointed out. Oracles only answer in a word or brief phrase as well, so you aren't going to learn the battle plan of the Orc Army. Information COULD also be inaccurate since much of what people think they know as facts is not accurate.

All this means that the DM can certainly make the ritual useful. It could give exactly what you need but at a higher price than other options. The DM can answer other questions in ways that don't break the plot but still help the party and make casting it worthwhile.

Honestly the issue I have with this ritual is more the burden it puts on the DM to anticipate its use than anything else. Pretty much any DM who allows it into the player's hands is going to have to come up with a way to answer the questions BEFORE the players think to use the ritual, which could well mean a good bit of careful thinking.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah.

But arms races are ridiculous and tiresome.

and somewhat realistic.. compare to high tech and viruses or similar things.

Much better to remove the reason for people wearing stupid hats of non-detection, for example, than to invent the damn hats in the first place, I say.

That is, make the rituals unreliable to allow the DM to remain in control.

I do like magic with a measure of unreliability on the otherhand both the pyramids and alien mind reading beams they block ... "can" be part of the fun.

Counter measures can be the reason for the unreliability... not really much difference just the details you want to go in to with regards to them. My game world has locations with lots of magical noise... fall out sites from high magic wars. There can be places with intensionally created obsfucation fields and thieves with rituals to aide them can be common... nobles wanting there privacy might block the very rituals which could discover the thieves which penetrated there defenses.

IMO Rituals of whatever kind are the things that need most customization with regards to what is available how common and at what level... and price. These things can affect the game world. How common are ritualists in the game world? Relatively common amongst heros.

 

[Bagpuss]

Is it just me, or does the Consult Oracle ritual basically make it impossible to keep any secrets once anyone can cast the dang ritual?

Depends how you read it.

"For the oracle to know the answer to a question, the answer must be known to at least one creature, even if that creature is no longer alive."

That is a requirement for the oracle to know the answer, not a proof that they do know the answer. If that case it true it does not mean the oracle automatically knows the answer.

Look at it this way for me to be eating cake right now, I must have a cake to eat. But just because I have a cake doesn't mean I'm eating it right now. If I don't have the cake I can't be eating it, but just because I do have a cake doesn't mean I am eating it. It's passion fruit cake in case you are interested, and I'm saving it for later.

"This makes them unparalleled sources of information because they have the potential to have seen and heard everything, even information otherwise known to only one creature."

The fact that one creature knows this information means the oracle summoned has the potential to know the answer. Not that they do that's, still up to the DM. However if no creature ever knew the answer then the oracle would not be able to provide the information.

 

[Roger]

Is it just me, or does the Consult Oracle ritual basically make it impossible to keep any secrets once anyone can cast the dang ritual? All it requires is one person, alive or dead, to have known the answer to the question.

I believe that's the correct interpretation of the rules. This is discussed on page 27 of the DMG.

The DM could houserule it, but of course that is off-topic for this forum.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[Crothian]

Having the knowledge and being able to do something with it are two different things. Look at the question Who killed our Patron?

Answer: Bob Daniels.

If the PCs don't know who that is it isn't really helpful. It doesn't tell them if he acted alone or was hired by someone. And what if two people know two different answers?

As a DM I've found that I don't have to be cryptic or misleading with information from these type of spells. I give the players what they asked for and it is up to them to do something with the information if they can. Knowing is just half the battle.