No WTF? Moments

[Connorsrpg]

I have held back on the so-called edition wars, and I certainly do NOT want this thread to go down that path, so if you care to join in, please quote from as many editions as you can.

Background: Myself and my group have played every edition since AD&D and have initially enjoyed each edition more than the last (quoting one of my players there). But over time, throughout each edition, some things really grow to bug you (and in my case they are often things I initially liked).

I believe all editions are more alike at the core than some people argue - often even the main mechanics are good, but I am finding a lot of people complaining about minor things and at first I felt that was being a little trite, but then I sat down and thought about a lot of the things that bugged me, and it was those WTF? moments when reading a book or new addition that really threw me.

I have just bought the Pathfinder books (yes, looking at other options, but still playing 4E and Star Wars Saga), so I will start with those, quote a few others and then you can join in.

Disclaimer: This is not for edition warring - this is a message to the writers of our beloved game to avoid those screwy ideas that just don't seem to make sense 'in the mind' or 'at the table' despite often being accompanied by a solid mechanic (and game reasons for it).

Pathfinder Core - Cleric Domains - Granted Powers
Thrown out initially by the Air Domain granting lightning powers (even when there is a Weather Domain), but why on earth (pun intended) does the Earth Domain grant Acid powers? "I worship, Irthgad, Lord of Stone and all that is solid. Now feel the wrath of his..acid?". Please do not align Elements with Energy types. A simple Bludgeoning power could have done if the power must be a damage one.

Pathfinder Core - Female Barbarian Picture
Not a chance in hell in using that sword.

Pathfinder Beastiary - Orc
I know I have this elsewhere, but orcs are a fav and I flipped to them first. Thinking they would be one of the easiest to follow I see they have Ferocity and Light Sensitivity. Both sound cool and appropriate, so what do they do? I have to check on index in the back. Then Light Sensitivity says orcs are dazzled, so what is that. Back to the Core book. They are -1 attack. Why not write that there under orc. Would actually take a lot LESS space. Please make creature stats easy to follow, but with an 'Ideas and Options' section at the bottom for making them more complicated, or listing cool feats/spells/powers that are appropriate to add on.

4E Monster Manual
Yeah, the old level 1 kobolds with 20-something hit points. I went with the explanations, but still, after using many of them, it just does not seem right. (Yes, I used many minions instead, or ended up 'minionising' other stat blocks). Please return monster hps to a reasonable level.

4E Monster Manual
Creatures like clumsy giants having such high Reflex and stupid and unperceptive creatures with high Will. Please do not make level only determine these things. I want creatures that make sense.

There's a start. Feel free to add you own. Please be specific and rather than pay out on a whole edition, please list those moments that really through you out of the fantasy/dnd head space and made you think WT? (ie: Ideas to avoid in 5E)>

 

[foolish_mortals]

I've had plenty of those moments where things don't seem to make sense. Last week I learned that Fire Elementals can be hurt by fire in 4.0. That was a WTF moment. I don't know if Money Cookie thinks that's a terrible mistake or has talked himself into thinking it's brilliant. The 5th edition will explain everything!

good flumphing!
foolish_mortal

 

[Elf Witch]

A WTF for me in 4E was a character is bleeding out and a leader can shout at him to give back permanent hit points.

A WTF in 3E that only magical types can make alchemy items. Traditionally alchemy was all about using formulas to change the properties of things they were more scientist then mage.

Another WTF for me in 3E is evasion only being a class skill for certain classes. Why can a ranger who has exactly the same dex and maybe more ranks in tumble then the rogue not be able to avoid a spell but the rogue can because he is sneaky.

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=80916]elf[/MENTION]Witch

I have had those moments like the Warlord one. There ARE times when it makes sense and others where it is like, no! I really wish 4E made it explicit for players that there are times when your powers will not work or will be less effective, and giving advice for GMs to DO this.

In our game the Gnome Warden - Verdant Lord creating vines all around him no matter where just did not feel right all the time. (I actually made him make Nature checks to instigate this in places like the Fane of Tiamat ).

Re Evasion - I guess that could be said for several class abilities. (Hence I like the Talent Trees of SW Saga where several could access them, but that still won't solve your prob. Guess this is the kind of thing that might make a feat)?

 

[LurkAway]

I've had plenty of those moments where things don't seem to make sense. Last week I learned that Fire Elementals can be hurt by fire in 4.0. That was a WTF moment.

Peace between fire elementals?

My current pet peeve is the Foe to Frog in Heroes of Feywild. Like most of the book, the fluff is so amazingly compelling, and the mechanics are so uninspiring:

A billowing cloud of green fog surrounds your foe. When the fog dissipitates, your enemy is gone, and a miniscule creature such as a frog, a newt, or a mouse stands in its place.
Hit: The target turns into a Tiny beast of your choosing (save ends)
Miss: The target turns into a Tiny beast of your choosing until the end of its turn.
Effect: As a Tiny beast, the target is dazed, and the only actions it can take are to move its speed or shift. All of the target's equipment transforms with it. If it takes damage from any source, this effect ends

I'd rather have no spell at all then this poor crippled beast of a compromise.

 

[trancejeremy]

Why can't magic-users use swords? They're basically just like long daggers...and the longer ones are like quarterstaffs.

(see illustration on this page

http://www.thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm )

 

[mkill]

4E Monster Manual
Creatures like clumsy giants having such high Reflex and stupid and unperceptive creatures with high Will. Please do not make level only determine these things. I want creatures that make sense.

I agree on this one. I faintly remember several times where my PC would try to guess a monsters defenses (big and slow - low ref; kind of dumb - low will; totally mindless - high will)

So I got out the Monster Manual and browsed a bit. What I do notice is that it is pretty random. For some monsters, all defenses are about the same, with AC slightly higher. Some have huge differences.

Soulspike Devourer p. 69: AC 38, Fort 37, Ref 29 (!!), Will 34
Purple Worm p.214: AC 33, Fort 34, Ref 30, Will 29

By the way, the Magma Beast p 214 has resistance fire and vulnerability cold. No idea why not the fire elemental. My guess is that the Monster Manual was a bit rushed (like all of the 4E core books), and another round of editing and cleanup would have caught these things.

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=55985]mkill[/MENTION]

Yeah, I always looked at a creature and reduced at least one defense on all of them ad hoc. I liked to reward my players for going for weaknesses. It really threw them out when fighting lumbering giants and dull ogres (well that was the way I role-played them) and the players would target the giants/ogres' Will, roll decently only to learn they 'missed'. Always got groans...."An ogre's Will defense is higher than that!?"

 

[Henry]

The one for me was:
3E -- The swallowing whole mechanics. When you cut your way out of most big creatures, "muscular action closes the hole." Saywhatnow!?!?

4E -- getting back all hit points and healing surges with just one day of rest. Huh?!?

1E -- For the venerable 1E, it was the question "if a combat round is a series of attack exchanges in 1 minute's time, and you only get 1 or two palpable hits," then why does my Archer expend 2 arrows in 1 minute?

Every game has some "saywhatnow?" moments in them.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Money Cookie

For all that the hoary Internet trope of derisive renaming is a staple of trolls everywhere, you're not even good at it.*

The best troll rename for Monte Cooke is Monty^He Hau^H^H^HCooke.
(That's Montye HauCooke for you whippersnappers.)

I would have given it to you if you had used pie though.

*

Spoiler

Unless you are a "bad troll" meta-troll than this is pretty good.