Definitely intentional. I'd like to note that this is a direct result of always increasing your two most important stats (which technically isn't something you absolutely have to do).
Non-AC Defenses
- Thread starter Starfox
- Start date
UngeheuerLich
Legend
The problem here is, that the system somehow assumes, that you always increase your best stats. So you only don´t fall behind, if you constantly do everything to increase these defenses. IMHO it would have been a better assumption, that those increases are spread over 3 attributes, that you have a choice to keep up with attack, damage and defenses and if you focus on a certain aspect, the rest suffers.
This is to a certain extend done: with feats to improve defenses or attack. But the problem here is, that these feats compete with others. So some would call them a tax.
I don´t have a good answer to adress this problem. Maybe giving everyone a bonus to defenses and attacks at level 11 and 21 may be the easiest and smoothest solution, because it is in line with bumping of all stats at this level.
And suddenly you are free to spread those 2 +1 bonuses a little bit around without falling behind. (you can allow yourself to not bump your main attribute at every level and instead spend them on a 3rd, or focus on your main stat and allow some defenses to suffer.)
This is to a certain extend done: with feats to improve defenses or attack. But the problem here is, that these feats compete with others. So some would call them a tax.
I don´t have a good answer to adress this problem. Maybe giving everyone a bonus to defenses and attacks at level 11 and 21 may be the easiest and smoothest solution, because it is in line with bumping of all stats at this level.
And suddenly you are free to spread those 2 +1 bonuses a little bit around without falling behind. (you can allow yourself to not bump your main attribute at every level and instead spend them on a 3rd, or focus on your main stat and allow some defenses to suffer.)
eamon
Explorer
Technically you don't; but not doing so simply causes the problem for other NAD's, not to mention virtually always reduces other combat-abilities. In all cases that I've seen fellow players actually do this (and there's been a few), without a single exception so far, doing so reduced the PC's effectiveness.
As value guesstimation, +1 AC >= 3x +1 NAD; +1 to hit ~= +1 AC + 3x+1 NAD >= 6x +1NAD; +1to-hit ~ +1 dmg; +1 primary stat mod ~ +1tohit + +1dmg + +1NAD (and sometimes more). I.e. very roughly, +1 primary stat mod ~ 13x +1NAD. Raising your primary ability on the order of ten times more attractive than merely raising a NAD by 1. Of course, Con, Dex & Int are somewhat special so this is only a very very rough guesstimate. That would suggest that it's generally very attractive to spend a mere 7 points to raise a point-buy 16 to 18 rather than 2 points to raise a 10 to a 12 - after all, that's 3.5 times more expensive, but gives ten times the value.
I'm sure you weren't suggesting people actually raise off-stats purely for NAD's, but seeing as I've had that happen in several parties I've been in, I now always feel obliged to point out that doing so is a very, very bad idea unless you have some very special and well-thought out reason for doing so (and have considered the cost).
It's terribly easy to screw up a character by raising the wrong stats at levels 4/8. It's annoying because doing so screws up party balance; suddenly fairly normal characters can look quite overpowered without using any cheese.
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Ryujin
Legend
I'm beginning to think that spending a feat on Great Fortitude was largely a waste of time. My 16th level Warlock has the following defences:
AC - 29
REF - 29
WIL - 28
FOR - 24
Not only do I get nailed on FOR attacks without the opposition breaking a sweat, but most attacks I get hit with appear to be area FOR targeted. That means my Shadow Walk class feature rarely kicks in for the additional concealment bonus. It's amazing how they can tell it's my weakest defence at a glance
I can also count on the fingers of one foot how many times I've been targeted with REF or AC attacks. Even the minions usually have some sort of fortitude attack. It's driving me nuts, when the most common attack types are supposed to be AC and REF.
AC - 29
REF - 29
WIL - 28
FOR - 24
Not only do I get nailed on FOR attacks without the opposition breaking a sweat, but most attacks I get hit with appear to be area FOR targeted. That means my Shadow Walk class feature rarely kicks in for the additional concealment bonus. It's amazing how they can tell it's my weakest defence at a glance
I can also count on the fingers of one foot how many times I've been targeted with REF or AC attacks. Even the minions usually have some sort of fortitude attack. It's driving me nuts, when the most common attack types are supposed to be AC and REF.
Infiniti2000
First Post
There are good acronyms and bad acronyms. NAD is a bad one.
Talk to your DM about intentionally hitting you in the wrong nads.Ryujin said:
Ryujin
Legend
I will, as I'm pretty tired of constantly getting kicked in the NADs.
That made me laugh.
As a DM I give hints to my players on what the worst/best defense on a mob is. It's only fair as I know their weaknesses. Hello mr barbarian, do you want me to attack your will defense again?
Starfox
Hero
I got the values for the group fighter - and was reminded we are at level 16.
Fort: 31
Ref: 27
Will: 28
This is better than the bard's above, but considering a level 16 monster has around +20 attack bonus, they still have 50% or better chance of hitting any of these values.
I'm starting to think we need a pretty big buff to all NADs, escalating over level. Something like +1 per 5 levels, increasing at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26.
Fort: 31
Ref: 27
Will: 28
This is better than the bard's above, but considering a level 16 monster has around +20 attack bonus, they still have 50% or better chance of hitting any of these values.
I'm starting to think we need a pretty big buff to all NADs, escalating over level. Something like +1 per 5 levels, increasing at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
@eamon:
i believe, you are a bit overestimating the importance of an 18 in your primary. Although I can follow your reasoning and generally agree with always increasing your primary at all opportunities, it is often worth considering not always increasing your secondary to increase your FR or W defense AND qualify for feats.
Also you usually find a reason to have other attributes than primary or secondary a bit higher to go for a 16 instead of an 18 in your primary. (Although, as you point out, only for NAD reasons, it is rather uncompelling.)
a 3rd attribute bump won´t do it IMHO since there are quite some classes, which have primary and secondary in paired attributes.
@ Starfox: beginning at level 1 to increase every FRW defense is to early, as it is ok at level 1. And I don´t like boosts at even levels. So 5,11,15,21,25 looks better
i believe, you are a bit overestimating the importance of an 18 in your primary. Although I can follow your reasoning and generally agree with always increasing your primary at all opportunities, it is often worth considering not always increasing your secondary to increase your FR or W defense AND qualify for feats.
Also you usually find a reason to have other attributes than primary or secondary a bit higher to go for a 16 instead of an 18 in your primary. (Although, as you point out, only for NAD reasons, it is rather uncompelling.)
a 3rd attribute bump won´t do it IMHO since there are quite some classes, which have primary and secondary in paired attributes.
@ Starfox: beginning at level 1 to increase every FRW defense is to early, as it is ok at level 1. And I don´t like boosts at even levels. So 5,11,15,21,25 looks better
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