Non-average ability scores for Mounts/Familiars/Companions/Cohorts?

[DrSpunj]

In this thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57597

Artoomis says:

Finally, if you use points to build your characters, be sure you ask for the same number of points for you mount, and use the MM to figure out the ability modifiers.

This got me wondering...

No one has taken the Leadership feat in any game I've played in, but if they did, I would think most DMs would allow the cohort to use the same ability score generation the PCs use.

Is it unreasonable, therefore, to extend that to Familiars, Mounts and Animal Companions? or should they always just be the MM-presented-average specimens of their species?

Are there any rules [in 3.5] that support "building" your Familiar/Mount/Animal Companion from scratch rather than just pulling the cookie cutout from the MM? I mean, he's your animal turned magical beast, and you're heroic, so shouldn't he be heroic also? or are the bonuses given to them as their master levels the in-game representation of that heroism?

Any thoughts?

DrSpunj

 

[Artoomis]

Are there any rules [in 3.5] that support "building" your Familiar/Mount/Animal Companion from scratch rather than just pulling the cookie cutout from the MM? I mean, he's your animal turned magical beast, and you're heroic, so shouldn't he be heroic also? or are the bonuses given to them as their master levels the in-game representation of that heroism?

Any thoughts?

DrSpunj

Yes some rules do exist.

Notably:

Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.

Elite Array: The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. While the monster has one weakness compared to a typical member of its race, it is significantly better overall. The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.

Nonelite Array: The nonelite array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.

Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

In addition, I think that they should get the method of ability point generation that PC-controlled NPC's get (cohorts). I'll give an example.

If the ability scoresare:

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

then the score adjustments would be

+4, +3, +2, +1, 0, -2

Adjusting from a base of 11. I think I read this somewhere, but I can't remember where.

 

[DrSpunj]

Re: Re: Non-average ability scores for Mounts/Familiars/Companions/Cohorts?

If the ability scores are:

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

then the score adjustments would be

+4, +3, +2, +1, 0, -2

Adjusting from a base of 11. I think I read this somewhere, but I can't remember where.

I believe it's similar to the method used to find the appropriate ability adjustments when you want to play a non-standard race character outlined in Savage Species and whatnot. In that case you subtract 11 from every odd score and 10 from every even score, so your adjustments would actually be:

+4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2

which makes a lot more sense, IMO, given the way ability mods work.

I'm assuming the rules text you quoted is in the DMG or MM? I'm still parsing my way through the PHB. Can you please reference a book and page number?

As a player I'd LOVE to use the same ability score generation on my creatures as I did for my PC. As a DM, I think that would be a bit much (I use 36 pt-buy, or pick one of two sets of 4d6-1 with a single reroll during each set) but I can easily see using the Elite array since these are unique creatures. At a minimum I would hope most DMs would allow at least the Non-Elite array just for the sake of customizability.

Thanks for replying, I appreciate it!

DrSpunj

 

[Artoomis]

Re: Re: Re: Non-average ability scores for Mounts/Familiars/Companions/Cohorts?

I believe it's similar to the method used to find the appropriate ability adjustments when you want to play a non-standard race character outlined in Savage Species and whatnot. In that case you subtract 11 from every odd score and 10 from every even score, so your adjustments would actually be:

+4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2

Your right - that's much better. Thanks.

The other rules I quoted are in the MM under Improving Monsters (or something like that - it's in the srd as well). Page number? Sorry - I don't own the MM, only the PHB and DMG.

 

[Artoomis]

Oh - also, you must remember that the ability score modifers for leveling up are already included. No fair getting them twice!

 

[DrSpunj]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Non-average ability scores for Mounts/Familiars/Companions/Cohorts?

The other rules I quoted are in the MM under Improving Monsters (or something like that - it's in the srd as well). Page number? Sorry - I don't own the MM, only the PHB and DMG.

No problem, I just got home and happily found what you'd quoted very quickly & easily in the MM, Chapter 4: Improving Monsters, under the section entitled "Ability Score Arrays". Amazing what organization can get you nowadays, isn't it?

In reading over the section more carefully, the chapter in general, and what you posted from the SRD, I'm convinced this is HOW I would go about customizing/improving a Mount/Familiar/Companion or Cohort, but I'm afraid it lands me back at my original question:

SHOULD Mounts, Familiars, Companions and Cohorts be given a Non-standard array of ability scores?

I think most would agree that a Cohort deserves a better set of scores than the standard set of all 10s & 11s. The rDMG under the Attracting Cohorts section says "The DM determines the details of the cohort. The cohort has gear as an NPC (See Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value, pg. 127)" after giving specifics about alignment restrictions and saying that "a character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class & alignment." There is no other mention about the cohort's specific abilities/scores.

Since the DM is pointed to use the NPC Gear Value table, I don't think it's much of a stretch to use the NPC class tables for Cohorts. The "Elite & Average Characters" section on pg. 110 says average characters use the 3d6 method and don't get maximum hp on their first die, and says "monsters described in the MM are average characters rather than elite ones (though elite monsters also exist)." Elite characters and monsters recieve maximum hp on their first die and use the Elite Ability array we've already mentioned.

OTOH, looking at the rPHB under the Druid's Companion, Paladin's Mount & Sor/Wiz's Familiar, each block of text contains the text: "...Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the [appropriate] kind, as given in the MM, but make the following changes:". The Paladin's Mount section even goes so far as to provide statistics for the Heavy Warhorse and Warpony, which are identical to the average/standard entries in the rMM.

I guess that answers my question, then:
Core rules state Mounts, Familars & Companions are average specimens of their species. They are special because of the benefits they receive from their master's class levels in the appropriate class.

I'm trying to play with as few House Rules as possible, but if these creatures die too often (or seem too useless) I'll probably add a house rule that allows them to use the Elite Array instead of the Standard Array (and I'd allow the Non-elite Array right now if someone really wanted to customize their creature, since balance-wise there is no difference).

Thanks for the comments!

DrSpunj