D&D 4E Non-Euclidean Geometry in 4E?

Sir Sebastian Hardin said:
It is about MOVEMENT SPEED! Not about SPACE!
In a universe that uses non-Far Realm geometry, those two things are inextricably related in a constant and observable fashion.

I even believe we wont have firecubes. They haven't stated anything on areas, just movement.
DDM, which is all about keeping D&D and Miniatures pretty transparent, has square circles for radius effects. It's 95 percent, at least, that 4E will do the same.
 

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BryonD said:
Oh, ok.
Of course I greatly disagree.

To me it matters a lot that taking on the role of a character in a world includes the understanding that the world itself is not absurd. And reality stretching by 40% linearly and 200% in two dimensions simply by turning 45 degrees is plenty far into absurd.

Pish tosh. If I could handle not being able to move diagonally in Ultima 4, anyone can handle this.
 



It is indeed very similar to min-maxing ability scores. (Though min-maxing ability scores isn't always a bad thing. Rudgar, filler of Graves the claymore wielding beserker ought to have a high strength and be able to kill two orcs with one stroke. If you describe the character you want to play as Rudgar filler of Graves but have an 8 strength and an 18 charisma or a 13 strength and a 7 con, you're either role-playing a liar or you're not role-playing. If you ask me, proper role-playing requires you to arrange the character's ability scores so that he can accomplish what the character is supposed to be able to accomplish.)

But, back to the point. While it is often distained, min/maxing is simply a fact of life. The vast majority of players, if they understand the rules, use them to make effective characters. (And those who don't make effective characters are often the victims of unsuccessful min/maxing rather than being principled avoiders of min/maxing--the guy in my first 3rd edition campaign who made an 8 con fighter/wizard as his first character was one such. It was his first 3rd edition game and in 2nd edition, it wouldn't have been a bad choice--he just wasn't familiar enough with the changes in 3rd edition to understand that it was a bad choice in 3rd edition). I would bet that, if you pick any game at random and look at the character's ability scores, the wizard will have a high int, the cleric will have a high wis, the archer will have a high dex, and most melee type characters will have a high strength. They will all have a high con. It's certainly been true in all the campaigns I've played in. And, to discuss the largest sample size I have available to me, at least 75% of Living Greyhawk or Living Arcanis characters I've seen (which is quite a few) have had ability scores within the ranges that I would designate as optimal if Goodman Games asked me to write the Powergamer's Guide to Every Third Edition Class. (I've written, DMed, and played in the campaigns for nearly eight years all up the west coast, so my anecdotal sample size is pretty decent--if you wanted non-anecdotal evidence, you could investigate the posted characters here http://www.onyxgate.com/turbine/char-list?region=PAL&SETSTYLE=PAL ). The point is this: min-maxing ability scores is probably the most universal part of D&D other than using a PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual.

So, we have good reason to believe that, as soon as experience teaches the ways to exploit and abuse the 1/1/1 movement rule, the vast majority of players will do so.

rjdafoe said:
I am not calling anyone names at all here, let me be clear about that but the concerns of this really sound to me very similiar to MIN/MAXING ability scores. Only the concept is being applied to movement.
 

BryonD said:
And reality stretching by 40% linearly ... simply by turning 45 degrees is plenty far into absurd.
You are aware that a 20 ft. x 20 ft. room in 3.5 has 16 playable squares if aligned orthogonally on the axes but only 13 playable squares if at 45 degrees?

Besides, such a room in 3.5 is about 6% smaller per dimension if measured by diagonal; we're not talking presence of error, we're talking magnitude.

Not that any of this really matters. If the rooms come first, you draw the rooms, overlay the grid, and you have however many squares happen to fit in each room. If the grid comes first, you draw the rooms to fit the grid and then describe the size of the room based on how big it ends up being. Everyone knows that "6 diagonal squares" is a larger euclidean size than "6 (orthogonal) squares", so no-one is confused by trying to treat them as identical.

By "identical", I don't just mean dimensions. The grid points are also different on an orthogonal and diagonal layout, regardless of metric.
 

It is the DM's world, and he draws the dungeon and aligns the grid as he sees fit (once, of course. he can't change it back)

ainatan's DM has to be a lame one, if he would allow him to rotate the grid however he wants. And his party would be have to get a new DM if he changes the grid each time he needs it.
 

Sir Sebastian Hardin said:
It is the DM's world, and he draws the dungeon and aligns the grid as he sees fit (once, of course. he can't change it back)

ainatan's DM has to be a lame one, if he would allow him to rotate the grid however he wants. And his party would be have to get a new DM if he changes the grid each time he needs it.
Just because you don't take advantage of the broken rules it doenst' mean the rules isn't broken.

Haste 3.0 was broken. Saying a DM was lame for allowing its use with all the obvious combos derivated from it, isn't really a valid argument to say Haste was Ok. We can get a new DM, a new group a new game or just don't play RPG, but the broken rules is still there.

The distortion we get with orthogonally and diagonally rooms is just one of the problems with the 1-1-1-1 rule BTW.
 

Sir Sebastian Hardin said:
For the love of God!!!! there's NO FACING IN d20 system!!!!! Not in 3e and not in 4e!!!!!!

Well, if you go back to 3E proper (3.0), consider:
(1) Non-square facing,
(2) Mounted combat rules,
(3) Shield spell,
(4) Tower shield rules.
 

ainatan said:
Just because you don't take advantage of the broken rules it doenst' mean the rules isn't broken.

Haste 3.0 was broken. Saying a DM was lame for allowing its use with all the obvious combos derivated from it, isn't really a valid argument to say Haste was Ok. We can get a new DM, a new group a new game or just don't play RPG, but the broken rules is still there.

The distortion we get with orthogonally and diagonally rooms is just one of the problems with the 1-1-1-1 rule BTW.
So, what you're saying is that this rule unfairly benefits a character who can freely rotate the map vs a character who can't...?
 

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