Normal apes are Large?

[Quasqueton]

Is the label "Large" an error for the Animal - Ape monster entry? Although it does have a space and reach of 10'/10' (correct for Large), it's description says it is only up to 6' tall and up to 400# (which matches Real World apes, yes?). This is well below the height and weight minimum for Large creatures.

I haven't seen errata on this, but I may have missed it.

Quasqueton

 

[frankthedm]

They used to only take up a 5 foot area and were still large size class in 3.0

Not sure why, but the rules do seem keen on keeping them large. I would assume that their arms a rather long for thier height [giving them an ogres reach] and that their bulky bodies are big enough to give them size penalties. Plus Large size catagory was where most other 4 HD critters went to when 3E was catagorizing monsters during creation.

Myself, I use medium size minis for them, drop thier reach and add 1 to thier AC and attack rolls.

I like thier stats since you can build a lot of oddball critters from them with only slight modifications. Biohazard / Resident Evil Hunters being the first one that leaps to mind.

 

[dcollins]

They used to only take up a 5 foot area and were still large size class in 3.0

In 3.0, all Large (tall) creatures had Face/Reach of 5x5/10 feet.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Is the label "Large" an error for the Animal - Ape monster entry? Although it does have a space and reach of 10'/10' (correct for Large), it's description says it is only up to 6' tall and up to 400# (which matches Real World apes, yes?). This is well below the height and weight minimum for Large creatures.

Think of it more like they're medium, but the way that they're formed and act, they're effectively a large creature. They have as much reach because of their long arms, and they're a bit less accurate and quick because of their brutish form (resulting in the -1 to attack and to AC), and just take up that much space because of it.

Take Horses, for example. The way it is in 3.5, two horses can't walk down a 10-foot corridor side-by-side, because they're each considered large creatures, and large creatures each take up an entire 10-foot square. (It was a bit more complicated in 3e, yet it made more sense with the whole "Large [Long]" thing.)

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Take Horses, for example. The way it is in 3.5, two horses can't walk down a 10-foot corridor side-by-side

This is incorrect.

 

[UltimaGabe]

This is incorrect.

Care to elaborate? Horses are Large creatures, and thus each take up a 10-foot square. Therefore, in combat, it's impossible for two of them to walk side-by-side down a 10-foot wide hallway. (In fact, I didn't even make up this example- I stole it from one of the game producers in an article explaining the differences between 3e and 3.5.)

 

[Caliban]

Care to elaborate? Horses are Large creatures, and thus each take up a 10-foot square. Therefore, in combat, it's impossible for two of them to walk side-by-side down a 10-foot wide hallway. (In fact, I didn't even make up this example- I stole it from one of the game producers in an article explaining the differences between 3e and 3.5.)

Two horses can't fight side by side in a 10-foot wide hallway. Outside of combat, you can pack horses (and people) much more closely.

 

[Keoki]

Squeezing Movement

Two horses can't fight side by side in a 10-foot wide hallway. Outside of combat, you can pack horses (and people) much more closely.

Too true. two horses could use squeezing movement to walk side-by-side in a 10-ft. corridor. They wouldn't be able to rear up and flail effectively with their hooves, however, and they get AC penalties while squeezing, since they can't defend themselves well in a confined space.

Caliban, you can check out the specifics in the Player's Handbook Combat section, under Squeezing Movement, I believe.

Hope this helps.

 

[daTim]

Although I do agree that apes are big creatures with the largest of Male Gorillas weighing up to 500 pounds and is 6 feet tall; there are larger humans than that.

Even given their long arm spans of up to 9 feet I think that they would still have less reach than a Human with a Greatsword.

Lastly, Ape could mean any number of creatures from Gorillas to Orangutans. I just used Gorilla as the largest example.

Just a long winded way of saying I agree with FranktheDM

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Two horses can't fight side by side in a 10-foot wide hallway.

Well, they can fight, but they'll take penalties in doing so. And if one visualizes the situation, it's easy to see why.

Combat spacing -- i.e., 10 feet square for horses -- is about "controlling space." In order to fight effectively -- to be able to turn, dodge, lunge, rear, whatever you need to do in combat to bring weapons to bear or to avoid attacks -- you need space. Just as a human doesn't actually come anywhere near to filling a 5 foot square -- to say nothing of a halfling -- nor does a horse actually come anywhere near filling a 10 foot square.