Normal apes are Large?

[Jeff Wilder]

Just as a point of reference, I'm 6'5" tall and until fairly recently was nearly 400 pounds. (Substantially less now, and still lessening, thanks.) I wasn't hugely fat, even, the way people think when they hear "400 pounds," because I have an enormous frame.

And I am not, nor have I ever been, a Large creature. They got it wrong with the ape.


Jeff

P.S. I'm not fat, I'm big-boned!

 

[Greylock]

In our game, fwiw, we consider horses to occupy a space 5 by 10. Makes sense, especially as our dm has a horse in his backyard for ready comparisons. The question of combat has yet to come up, and likely never will. There is only one true horseman in the group, and the other players tend to dismount before swords or lances come into play.

HTH

 

[Klaus]

The sizes of animals are all wonky. Apes (even gorillas) should be Medium, at most.

Lions and Tigers should be Medium as well (a tiger or lion on its hind legs aren't bear-sized, and they're far from horse-sized).

I think the 10x10 fighting space for horses and other creatures is very accurate. Picture a wild stallion kicking and rearing in a corral, with several cowboys trying to get close and rope it in. The stallion would constatly rotate, setting up a "circle" of territory. In grid-terms, that'd be a square.

And, as others have said, this is "fighting" space. Horses can squeeze through (and fight poorly) in a 5x10 space (taking AC and attack penalties), and with an Escape Artist (untrained, of course) check, they can squeeze through even narrower spaces. With a groom to guide it, the horse could Take 10 and fit through a doorway (into a barn or horse-moving truck, for instance).

 

[dcollins]

I still use 3.0 rules. A line of knights should be able to charge side-by-side without penalty in a medieval fantasy game.

 

[Klaus]

But they do! A line of knights doesn't ride into battle shoulder to shoulder. They have to keep a minimum space between each other or they risk falling over themselves. A horse, plus the legs of the rider, plus a shield or something takes up a 5-foot wide space easily. Add a couple of feet to either side and you have a 10-foot fighting space.

 

[Garnfellow]

To get back to the original question, why are D&D apes Large?

I think it's a bizarre holdover from AD&D.

In the 1st Edition Monster Manual, there was the carnivorous ape. This was an intelligent race of Large, apelike, speaking creatures, based on the Mangani from Edgar Rice Burroughs' Tarzan novels, rather than on any real-world species.

In Second Edition, the carnivorous ape reappeared, but minus all references to its Intelligence.

It looks like the Third Edition designers just used 2nd edition when developing 3e stats for apes.

For what it's worth, I did a conversion of the Mangani-like 1st edition carnivorous ape:

http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/ape.htm

 

[Jdvn1]

So would you recommend dropping Apes to Medium and giving them Powerful Build?

 

[Scion]

Now that powerful build has been used in a few places maybe they will be given that eventually. Medium size, powerful build, and a couple of other perks.

 

[Garnfellow]

So would you recommend dropping Apes to Medium and giving them Powerful Build?

I think that's a good way to handle it.

 

[Starman]

So would you recommend dropping Apes to Medium and giving them Powerful Build?

That was my first thought when I looked at it.

Starman