I don't know that it is that important at all, especially with the new indomitable. I would definitely prioritize the feats that boost your spellcasting stat that you are using with your most effective attack first.
D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight
- Thread starter ECMO3
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I don't know that it is that important at all, especially with the new indomitable. I would definitely prioritize the feats that boost your spellcasting stat that you are using with your most effective attack first.
Yes you lose against the high-level, high initiative bosses, but without dexterity you also lose at lower level against all kinds of creatures and at higher level to the bosses minions.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Depends on the length of the adventuring.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Still it is not the most important thing. 20 dex vs 10 dex against static initiative just means you get an extra turn with a 25% chance. So if you do 4 attacks that is one extra attack on average.
I think you should build Intelligence first. Your strongest attack from level 7 on uses Intelligence, not dex. I think either Dex or strength is more important than constitution though. Strength gives you better Armor without a movement penalty, lets you use heavy weapns and given the choice between AC and hit points I would usually take AC. That said a 13 Strength and 12 Constitution cover a lot of ground. 8 strength is a lot of compromises, but better than 8 dexterity.
Because you use hurl a Javelin (using truestrike if you have low strength) at the bad guy and then use WS (save with disadvantage) and he can't close with you if he fails. Now he is at disadvantage and must use a ranged attack (or no attack if he lacks a ranged attack).
yes but it eats up your bonus action. If you get Shilleleagh, you should definitely not get PAM IMO. You are down on damage any way you slice it. You lose the ASI for taking PAM so you are getting an extra attack on the 2nd round of combat and giving up damage on every round every attack compared to just an ASI. On the flip side if you don't PAM the first round you are behind on damage until at least round 3. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Wrathful Smite is also a bonus action and it is most effective on the first round of combat, which again conflicts with Shillelagh out of the gate.
An EK should really focus on the cantrip portion of the attack IME. Yes the other attacks are there, but Shilleleagh is not a lot of extra damage and you can start raising your attack stat at high levels.
Conceptually 3 attacks with a Shilleleagh versus 3 with a Rapier It maxes out at 10DPR at level 11 (assuming 16 strength/20 Intellgence) and it is less than 10 DPR at both lower and higher levels, and that does not count Vex which is the most reliable damage boost of all the sword and board masteries.
In play with Vex it is going to be more like 8 DPR with a staff at level 11 and about equal before that.
An extra turn is the difference between 2-3 turns and 3-4 turns. That is like a 35% boost in DPR.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
In 25% of the combat. So it is less than a 10% boost.
There are other ways to boost performance by 10%.
barouqeworks
Villager
For a frontliner, i understand the need for ac but you dont need strength when you have dex and half plate + shield spell if you have warcaster added ontop of a shield.
i think youre good on ac with that, tbh
wrathful smite doesnt work with ranged attacks. a dm would probably rule that a thrown weapon doesnt count as attacking with a melee weapon
so this fails aside from i dont see how this requires being first on init
you can give up one instance of using wrathful smite (you have limited spell slots anyway) or using Pam to just set up shillelagh. it is only 1 turn in exchange to having 1 minute of a magical force dealing weapon that can deal up to 2d6+int mod. after that you can use the bonus Pam attack or wrathful smite as long as you want. this isnt even an issue.
This is massively incorrect,
dpr wise, at level 11 with the same assumption that you made (16 str 20 int) using a minimum of rolling an 8 on the die to hit, a rapier with dex comes out with 28.85 for the first round and then 29.64 WITH vex providing adv and using true strike.
as for someone doing the same with shillelagh attacks and true strike, the dpr is 28.30 for the first round and 33.30 after that when you add pam bonus action attack after the first round.
so shillelagh beats vex rapier dpr wise, not accounting for topple weapon mastery.
Good but better with heavy armor. Also if 1 point of AC is not a big deal, then instead of PAM if you get Dual Wielder and Heavy Armor you can have the same AC as that half plate+shield guy while having 2 more attacks (one more than the PAM guy) and you can get 2 more attacks from round 1 if you forgo Shillelagh and still get one more attack on the 1st round with Shilleleagh.
Yes it does. It is the weapon not the attack that matters for Wrathful Smite in the 2024 rules.
It works with any melee weapon which includes melee weapons with the thrown property (Javelin, Hand Axe, Spear, Dagger, trident).
It does not work with Ranged weapons like darts or crossbows.
This is not true and there are posts on this board about it. Every DM I have played with since the rules were published allowed it. I did not realize and initially said no in one of my games, but when presented with the wording corrected it.
Here is a thread on it, which reenforces that most ENworld posters accept the new rule mechanics:
Yes you can. But Wrathful Smite is much more effective on the first round of combat and this is a build that is built around Wrathful Smite. The same is true for Shillelagh, it is much more effective on the 1st round.
Even if you start in melee WS is still much more effective if used on the first round because with a failed save it imposes Frightened immediatly, right out of the gate, instead of the second or later round meaning fewer enemy attacks without disadvantage. This is aside from using it at range, which makes it even more effective and is much easier on the 1st round.
This is even more significant because the save against Wrathful Smite is always at disadvantage after level 10.
It is disadvantage and restrictions to movement for one more turn which is generally between 20% and 30% of an entire combat.
It is not incorrect.
your base damage at level 11 on a fighter with a Shilleleagh and 20 Intelligence is 3d12+2d6+15 (Truestrike, Attack, Attack). This is 41 damage using your bonus action on the first turn.
Damage with a rapier is 3d8+2d6+11 (Truestrike, Attack, Attack). This is 31 damage, without using your bonus action.
The difference is 10 DPR before Vex is considered and this is level 11, where it is highest. At level 12 Strength or Dex goes to 18.
Also what if you start too far away to melee on round 1? Are you still going to use Shilleleagh instead of Tactical Shift?
I wasn't counting PAM, but if you are maxing intelligence and getting Shadow Touched and Warcaster you are not getting PAM until 12th level anyway and if you are not maxing intelligence first than you are splitting Strength/Dexterity and Intelligence which was supposedly the main reason to get Shillelagh.
You also are not using PAM until the second round of combat and you are not using it if you can't reach enemies to melee because you will be using tactical shift instead.
Which brings up another bonus action conflict! Wrathful Smite, PAM, Tactical Shift all require bonus actions, so does Misty Step if you get it. You spent 3 feats getting things that rely on the same action economy to be effective.
You get the feat for Shilleleagh at level 1. Part of making it effective is maxing intelligence. On a point buy PC that starts with a 17 Intelligence and 15 attack stat:
Level 1-4 if you use your bonus action, you do the exact same damage as a Rapier does before Vex and wothout a bonus. When you consider Vex you are substantially lower (18 Int Level 4)
Level 5-6 you do slightly more damage (4 DPR) than a plain Rapier if you can close to melee on round 1. When you consider Vex and starting combat where you need to use Tactical Shift most of the time you are going to do less in play IME. Also when you consider starting position you are averaging lower on the first turn, which is the most important turn. (19 Int level 6).
Level 7 Your extra damage is down to 3 DPR vs a plain rapier as War Magic comes online. When you consider Vex and Tactical Shift you are still behind in most battles.
Level 8-10 vs a plain Rapier you are back up to 4 DPR and now for the first time about equal to a Rapier. (20 Int level 8)
Level 11: This is the first time you are actually doing more damage and at this point it is 10DPR before considering Vex or using another bonus action.
Level 11-20 you will be ahead, but not by by a lot in play, certainly not enough to counter having a more effective origin feat for the first 10 levels of the game.
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barouqeworks
Villager
i don't know where you're getting your calculations from but to say that at level 7 there is a deficit of 3 dpr is just wrong. yes you're doing more damage due to the adv, but only for the first round. the difference is literally .5 average, not 4. after that, they're still neck and neck with shillelaghs in the lead by .3
as for tactical shift, i dont see why thats a factor unless the distance is more than 40 feet. since it only activates when using second wind, id rather save it if im in a rough spot and need a quick retreat, since they are a limited resource like spell slots
mind you, this is all without using wrathful smite, but as an eldritch knight before level 13, id prefer to save my limited spell slots for defense like shield or absorb elements or the occasional shadow blade, so i wouldnt get shadow touched, even if it was a significant boost to dpr. even then, the whole original post was for a level 20 character
