Not allowed to talk about current HP and dying

[Saeviomagy]

I think you should consider the reasoning behind why you want to give hitpoint knowledge to players though. Is it to prevent verisimilitude? Is it to make the game tactically easier? Is it to preserve a feeling of certainty?

Is that purpose actually helping the game? Are people having more fun because of it?

Then make sure that the system you use is actually serving it's purpose.

No, I don't think that you can actually make that point. The base assumption is that players know the details of their character sheet, and are allowed to freely confer with other players in a game.

That said, the immediate benefits of allowing players to know hitpoint details are that communication is far easier and the game speed is quicker for it. I don't think that many people could argue that easy communication and quick play are bad things.

 

[kouk]

Personally, I don't think I could really enjoy a game where everyone hid their mechanical information like that. I don't think my players would enjoy that either.

I view mechanical information like Hit Points, Defenses etc. as abstractions of the "real world" of the fantasy world.

If I ask out of character, "Hey, what spells does your Wizard know?" I don't have more fun with the game when another player says, "You need not concern yourself with Meldar the Powerful's arcane repertoire foolish Ranger!" When obviously he uses the certain powers and I will see him use those certain powers during a game session -- it's just an extra step for secrecy that leads (me) to annoyance. If I want to talk to him "In character" I will do so, and obviously will not expect blunt answers like "Magic Missile."

It is not player against player or character against character. The PCs are supposed to travel/eat/sleep/fight/die together, so they should be fairly knowledgeable about each other in certain aspects that are best represented to everyone involved using the numbers.

A player knows all sorts of things by different terms than the characters would -- what character refers to his abilities as "Encounter powers" or having the "Implement Keyword?" What Fighter calls himself a "Fighter?" However, those terms clearly represent something that the characters are fully cognizant of in their own little universe, namely that some powers can't be used as much as others, and some powers benefit from magical implements, and some guys know how to use weapons and armor pretty darn well.


'Hit Points' is just the tool used to indicate how well you're doing, that's about it. If characters have eyes, and battle experience, they should be able to know how good that hit was by the way the receiving target moves/bleeds/screams. In that way they are keeping track of relative "hit points." But because we players aren't really seeing what the characters are, we need game terms to represent things. Just the act of a player giving an "approximation" is metagaming as well, unless the PCs are constantly shouting back and forth "How you doin?" "Eh, I've been better."

Keeping things numerical is an ease and speed consideration for players to understand the world that their characters are in. It keeps everyone on the same page the way that playing with a battle grid (if you do that) keeps everyone on the same page when it comes to positioning and movement.


I'm really not sure why Hit Points are so frequently singled out as "Metagame (bad) Knowledge" when damage numbers, attack roll bonuses, your own AC, and status effects you inflict or receive etc. are clearly known, especially when those things are frequently stated at the table and apparently something the character initiating and receiving the action is aware of.


You asked for opinions so I gave mine. But, your players will be more important to ask. I know (and it is apparent here) that lots of players prefer to keep certain things in the dark.

 

[Nytmare]

My players are odd. If they get into a discussion about hit points, they get fidgety and uncomfortable and get bogged down into a discussion of "I am hurt. How hurt? Badly hurt. Really badly, or just kinda badly? Um, kinda. Do you need to be healed? Well, I'm not as badly hurt as I was in that other fight; I'm maybe like 30% as badly injured now as I was in that other fight when I almost died. Should I heal you next roun- I mean later on?"

I appreciate that see the divide between the mechanics and their character, but I wish that they'd actually play one side or the other, and not hover around what they obviously see as the uncomfortable middle. "I have 5 hitpoints left." or "I'm bloodied." or "Gah! That filthy orc stabbed me! Brother Mendel, help!" are all better options in my book.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, I don't think that you can actually make that point.

Actually, I already did. It wasn't that hard to do so.

The base assumption is that players know the details of their character sheet, and are allowed to freely confer with other players in a game.

These assumptions do not lead to a definitive conclusion that players know or should know the details of other player's character sheets.

Only their own character sheet.

That said, the immediate benefits of allowing players to know hitpoint details are that communication is far easier and the game speed is quicker for it. I don't think that many people could argue that easy communication and quick play are bad things.

Unsubstantiated claim. You have yet to illustrate that the communication is required, desired, or allowed, nor that the game is actually sped up in any significant way (or at all).

If this were so desirable as you claim, why didn't the designers make a point of it?

Instead, the designers state in the DMG that the players should know the information that the characters should know. The characters know nothing of hit points, hence, the DMG does not support your assertion.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Actually, I already did. It wasn't that hard to do so.

Ok, maybe the sentence was missing the word "logically".

These assumptions do not lead to a definitive conclusion that players know or should know the details of other player's character sheets.

They also don't lead to a definitive conclusion that the players should know each others names, where the game is being held, and so on. The players share information, and that information sharing is not limited as a basic rule.

Instead, the designers state in the DMG that the players should know the information that the characters should know. The characters know nothing of hit points, hence, the DMG does not support your assertion.

And yet all the information about determining character hitpoints are in the players handbook, in the section pertaining to generating a character. Players keep track of their character's hitpoints. Further, the text suggests that hitpoints are an abstraction of factors that a character would know.

Unsubstantiated claim. You have yet to illustrate that the communication is required, desired, or allowed, nor that the game is actually sped up in any significant way (or at all).

So you're advocating a game where the players don't talk to each other?

Do you subscribe to the school of thought where if it's not explicitly listed in the rulebook that it's not possible?

Or perhaps you think that each player making perception checks every round to keep tabs on the status of other characters and the constant note-passing that such will entail will speed up play?

Maybe you don't believe than a 1-1 code book is the most efficient way of conveying information quickly and accurately and with a minimum of processing power?

As a final note:
The DMG does specifically list, under "table talk" that a decision as to whether players can share certain information must be taken. It specifically lists hitpoints as an example of such information.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

This is a similar topic to what came up in our game last week. I am playing a paladin, and one of my encounter powers lets me grant an ally a saving throw. It sort of implies that my character would KNOW when someone needs to save, otherwise the power is kinda goofy.

That being said, it should be player knowledge when other players have characters that can save something (i.e. you got hit by something that says save ends) versus something they can't save (i.e. you got hit by something that says until the end of the monsters next turn).

DS

 

[Krensus]

The guiding philosophy I use in this situation is that players should have plenty of information to enable them to make an intelligent move. Part of a leader's job is to keep the party alive to the best of their ability, and making them overheal or use a less effective heal than is needed is causing them to make a less than optimal move.

I played in a game once where the DM said that we couldn't discuss our hp totals, but all it led to was smoke and mirrors like someone described above with KotDT. Basically the Cleric and I switched seats so he was sitting next to the Fighter and the Fighter made no effort to hide his hit point tally. Before the game the Cleric would get everyone's max hp value and then keep his own tally as the DM handed out damage. Eventually the DM caught on to it and started keeping track of damage and hit points behind the screen, but this led to frustration. Interpreting what one person considers to be heal worthy damage with no reference point is very difficult and not fun. It led to lots of deaths because "pretty bad off" was apparently DM language for "1/8 hp." Other times, "pretty bad off" could mean "1/2 hp," and the cleric would blow a Heal for no reason.

What I'm trying to say is that there can be a break down in communication that will probably lead to frustration that makes the game lose a lot of its fun qualities. The example above just overcomplicated the game and either inspired subterfuge or caused player deaths beyond the control of the players, neither of which is desirable or enjoyable in a social game like D&D.

 

[eamon]

Since healing is pretty relative nowadays (with healing surges), there's not too much point in even discussing precise hitpoints. At our table, we avoid hit point totals, but rough terms are fine, so it'd be fine to say that you could use a surge, or that you can't take more than 1 or 2 of those hits - both of which don't tell you exactly how many hitpoints someone has, but tell everyone almost everything they need to know.

In 3.5 days, status was a commonly used spell, for us.

Similarly, I've never hid things (well... except by accident) like reach or aura's from players, but described it (that beast looks like it could easily pick you up from 15 feet away - reach 15ft, improved grab), at least, once the opponents are in action. I presume that most such abilities are readily apparent only in combat (a perception and insight check might do beforehand).

I expect the character to have more information than the players - about things like the quality of the armor, the agility of the creature behind it, and so on, which give hints about things like armor class which I can never describe fully. This means that I'm not too worried about most metagaming concerning a creature's stats - that's just being aware of actual in-game effects at a different level, and it takes a few rounds to really work out, so it's still useful to manage the knowledge checks (Oh, and by the way, these fiends are known to speak terribly blasphemies that leave the most hardened adventurer stunned - always nice to know, in 3.5!).

In short, I hide information, and let player's deduce it as part of the game. I'm not sure if that's fun for everyone though...

 

[eamon]

You might as well just use this...

You're still missing the "squished kitten" face meaning "I don't feel anything anymore"...

 

[essenbee]

It's really important for the players, especially beginners, to discuss EVERYTHING. Otherwise they'll have a tough time coming up with the right team player strategies. You WANT them to know about each others powers, thoughts, ideas, and status. I even let players of dead characters solve riddles etc.
I'll not stop the flow and tell them what they can't do unless the rules prohibit it.
Exceptions are stuff like players being in different rooms during encounters.
Keep in mind, it's about the fun. Let them have fun.

Agree 100%