Nothing is immune to daze?

[Nail]

if you can't perform an attack action... i don't think you threaten.

ergo... no AoO.

Oooooo.....don't let Hypersmurf see you post that.

 

[diaglo]

Oooooo.....don't let Hypersmurf see you post that.

i like to provoke him.

besides i don't have to read his responses.....

 

[DreamChaser]

really guys and gals, everyone knows that dazed, stunned, sleeping, dying, and dead creatures can make reflex saves and take AoOs because neither of them are actions. Just make sure you sleep or die with a melee weapon in your hand (monks rock even more now).

Why is there so much resistance to this eminently logical and reasonable rule?

DC

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, part of the reason there's "resistance" to the idea that dazed creatures can't make reflex saves or take AoOs is that it's neither eminently logical, reasonable, nor a rule.

Lumping dazed, stunned, sleeping, dying, and dead together to make a point also doesn't work at all. Dazed is a lot closer to hasted or flying than dead if you want to talk conditions. If you were to run through the whole continuum, it might look something like this:

hasted: one extra attack
normal
sickened: penalties
slowed: partial actions only
nauseated: partial actions only
dazed: no actions
flatfooted: no actions, no dex bonus
stunned: no actions, no dex bonus, +2 to hit you, drop what you are holding, cease to threaten an area, etc.
helpless; no actions, can be coup de graced, dex treated as if 0, etc

And even that continuum doesn't really work for conditions. For instance, it's not clear where shaken, frightened, and panicked would fit in.

So, the argument that dazed is a negative condition and some other negative conditions prevent the character from taking AoOs therefore dazed characters can't take AoOs or make reflex saves doesn't work.

According to a literal interpretation of the rules, AoOs are not actions therefore a dazed creature is not prevented from making them. This gains some support from the fact that flatfooted creatures may not take actions either but can, under some conditions (specifically--if they have combat reflexes), take AoOs. I don't see any problem with this.

 

[diaglo]

under some conditions (specifically--if they have combat reflexes), take AoOs. I don't see any problem with this.

but combat reflexes and such are exceptions to the rule. they even state how they work as exceptions.


kinda like improved sunder or improved grapple avoiding AoO... and then the victim takes another feat to overcome the improved feat...

 

[glass]

Well, part of the reason there's "resistance" to the idea that dazed creatures can't make reflex saves or take AoOs is that it's neither eminently logical, reasonable, nor a rule.

Elder-Basilisk, may I introduce you to sarcasm?


glass.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Sure, they're esceptions to the rule that flatfooted characters may not takes attacks of opportunity. However, such exceptions mean there's a lot of room to doubt that there is any such general rule as "characters who cannot take actions for any reason cannot take attacks of opportunity."

As far as I can tell, the inability to take AoOs is explicitly called out in the description of stunned and flatfooted and is not mentioned at all in the description of dazed. That would seem to imply to me that the various non-helpless conditions--such as dazed--still allow AoOs unless they are explicitly disallowed.

but combat reflexes and such are exceptions to the rule. they even state how they work as exceptions.


kinda like improved sunder or improved grapple avoiding AoO... and then the victim takes another feat to overcome the improved feat...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

No, you may not....

Elder-Basilisk, may I introduce you to sarcasm?


glass.

We're actually quite well acquainted.

 

[Shin Okada]

Sure, they're esceptions to the rule that flatfooted characters may not takes attacks of opportunity. However, such exceptions mean there's a lot of room to doubt that there is any such general rule as "characters who cannot take actions for any reason cannot take attacks of opportunity."

As far as I can tell, the inability to take AoOs is explicitly called out in the description of stunned and flatfooted and is not mentioned at all in the description of dazed. That would seem to imply to me that the various non-helpless conditions--such as dazed--still allow AoOs unless they are explicitly disallowed.

The problem is, "Dead", "Helpless", "Petrified" & "Unconscious" entries in DMG condition summary say nothing about AoOs, too.

 

[Goolpsy]

Daze cant be a problem.. im not sure, but doesn't the describtion say, that it has to be a humanoid with no more than 5 hit dice??

You could make a stronger version though.. and that might be worth debating