Noticing that an animal is actually a wild shaped druid casting a spell

[Ridley's Cohort]

Not surprisingly, I agree with Dr. Awkward and I think he raises a key point I failed to mention.

It may be obvious that the animal is doing something and is making noises and moving about. How does the observer know that it is spellcasting even if he has observed every last detail? What does a squirrel concentrating look like?

In all seriousness, I have seen squirrels in my yard chitter, dance, and gesture weirdly. I think it is because are young energetic little things and their brains are small. Would spellcasting look all that different from normal behavior?

The implicit REAL Question is not whether someone would notice the animal casting, it is whether the observer would correctly deduce whether what he just saw is spellcasting. Therefore, most of you have given the right answer to the wrong question.

 

[Sejs]

What does a squirrel concentrating look like?

Actually, I can answer that one, heh. It would be pretty easy to spot a squirrel concentrating - for one, they're totally, stock still. All the spastic tail twitching, ear movements and looking around that they normally do all the time are absent. The squirrel has its eyes dead-set locked on what it's looking at, and not even its whiskers are moving involentarily. Moreover, it's not even reacting to any of the normal environmental distractions that would otherwise cause a normal squirrel to react, look or move out of the way. Focused isn't normal for a squirrel.

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

Focused isn't normal for a squirrel.

Correct - but how is that focus different from the entirely normal 'freeze' reaction when they first spot you. I've seen many squirrels go completely motionless in an attempt to not be spotted themselves. OK maybe some whisker movement/ear-twitching, but how easy is it going to be to notice the difference? Are you close enough becomes an important factor.

Even if we give the PCs the benefit of the doubt first of all you have to spot that the squirrel is focussed on you (Spot), then you need to be aware that this is abnormal behaviour (Knowledge Nature, druids/rangers/barbarians in their preferred terrain get at least +5), then connect the momentary (if it's a standard action) abnormal behaviour of a squirrel with the prospect of it being a spell casting druid (Sense Motive). Until the spell actually goes off I'd rule that one very difficult (unless the party has been attacked in this manner before/repeatedly/etc. After all a standard action is a fraction of a 6 second period, so a squirrel that focusses on you for a second or two before bolting back along the branch or around the otherside of the trunk will be practically impossible to notice... particularly if the forest you're in is full of squirrels. Differentiating between those that focus and those that freeze before bolting - I wouldn't want to have to do it. If it's a full round casting that's a different matter - significant bonus on the knowledge nature cause it's sat there staring at you for a full 6 seconds.

And then let's think about the druids outside of the forest - what about the eagle watching intently from a nearby rock outcrop in the mountains... staring intently is exactly what eagles do, and the movement of it's feet could just be getting a better grip onit's perch. In the deserts it should be easy - you don't see enough animals to have a problem telling which was the only one in the area when the spell went off, you just need to hope it wasn't half-buried in the sand so you had a chance to see it. In swamp or jungle I'm sorry to say you haven't got a chance - just spotting the animal will be practically impossible even before you have a chance of identifying that it's behaviour is abnormal or guess it's a spell casting druid.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Actually, I can answer that one, heh. It would be pretty easy to spot a squirrel concentrating - for one, they're totally, stock still. All the spastic tail twitching, ear movements and looking around that they normally do all the time are absent. The squirrel has its eyes dead-set locked on what it's looking at, and not even its whiskers are moving involentarily. Moreover, it's not even reacting to any of the normal environmental distractions that would otherwise cause a normal squirrel to react, look or move out of the way. Focused isn't normal for a squirrel.

Umm...no. I probably average about 5 minutes a day squirrel watching from my breakfast table. I have well over a hundred hours of squirrel watching that says you are wrong. Probably closer to two hundred hours.

Squirrels freeze all the time. It is a skill that every land mammal on the planet that is not a top shelf predator is very, very good at. Freeze, move, move, freeze, move, freeze,...

Since their beady little eyes are on the side of their head, there is absolutely no way of discerning what they are looking at. They have roughly 300 degree vision. A squirrel staring at you does not point his head towards you -- he keeps one eye on you with a sideways look.

They also twitch and gesture weirdly all the time. And chitter, especially if there are other squirrels or a bird they suspect might be interested in their hidden acorns is within sight.

Young squirrels jump and dance around a lot. They are practicing their skills.

I just remarked to my wife two days ago I thought I just say a squirrel doing varmint yoga. He was stretching his front lines. Stretching? Pointing? Hard to say.

Since an action takes in the ballpark of ~1 sec to complete from start to finish, would anyone have a second thought about this normal behavior for a squirrel.

It is not normal for a human to stop everything, stare, speak weird words, gesture peculiarly, especially in the middle of combat. It is perfectly normal for a squirrel.

 

[smetzger]

I agree with you guys about the behavior of squirrels.

However, there is no indication from a rules perspective that it is more difficult to identify an animal casting a spell than a human casting a spell. If you want to "House Rule" it in your game that would be perfectly logical. But it is a House Rule. Another thing to consider is that Druids are probably the most powerful class in 3.5 and this ruling would make them even more powerful.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The rule as written is rather thin and obviously written for the context of small skirmishes in close quarters. It does not take into account an number of obvious factors. Does not even try.

If I am in the local colliseum with 99,999 of my closest friends watching troll gladitorial combat and someone casts a spell with no vocal, somatic, or material components, every single person in the colliseum immediately thinks to himself "That guy in section 17, row 24, seat 3 just cast a spell! I can tell he is concentrating on spellcasting" according to the RAW. We are all in line of sight of him so we all have automatic perfect knowledge regarding whether he is spellcasting.

There are a number of situations that the RAW just does not attempt to cover. Reading the scant pieces we have for very different other situations too literally gets us gibberish.

 

[Trainz]

IMC, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If the "animal" is in his natural environment, there really isn't any way to determine that the spell was cast by that bird over there, UNLESS it's a spell such as a ray.

It would be pretty obvious that the spell emanated from the animal then.

Otherwise, if you start being hit by columns of fire with no apparent source, then you better start casting detect magic/ true seeing/ whatever.

Or get the hell out. Quick.

In a dungeon setting, it would be more obvious that the squirrel isn't what it seems. But not in it's natural environment.

 

[smetzger]

The rule as written is rather thin and obviously written for the context of small skirmishes in close quarters. It does not take into account an number of obvious factors. Does not even try.

This is the Rules Forum. I am therefore answering the question from the perspective of the rules. By the rules spell casting is automatically detected, even if the spell casting is done by an animal.

If you want to house rule it thats fine, but it is a house rule.

 

[Sejs]

Nah, I don't disagree with you there at all - they do freeze, particularly when they first notice something. Part of the whole "if I don't move it can't see me" reaction. All I'm saying is that there would be a noticeable difference between a normal squirrel's freeze-move-freeze-move, and a squirrel that was frozen and staring straight at you, and didn't react to movement a normal critter would feel threatened by. I'm probably not explaining the image of a concentrating squirrel that I've got very well.

You know the look a dog gets when it's about to attack? Sure, its teeth are bared and its hackles are up, but it also has a distinct manner about how it stares at you, that tells you that you are the dead center of its personal doggy universe. Its attention is totally and utterly focused on you.

That look, that body language of intent is what springs to mind when I try to envision a wild shaped squirrel concentrating on a spell. Focused so hard it's palpable.

 

[velm]

This is the Rules Forum. I am therefore answering the question from the perspective of the rules. By the rules spell casting is automatically detected, even if the spell casting is done by an animal.

If you want to house rule it thats fine, but it is a house rule.

How does one 'automatically detect' a spell as it is being cast? So, if the DM says:

From out of the mists, you see a man in a dark hooded cloak. you are unable to discern any features other than it is of humanoid appearance, standing somewhere between 5ft and 5.5ft. Looks to be 130-140 pounds. After about a second or two, the man then raises his right hand, tosses some powder in the air in front of him and and says:
'Loki Unalaga THOT"

With that he outstretches his arms and arches his back and runs to you.

Was it a spell?
How do you know? where in the rules does it say?

As far as a wildshaped druid, what is the scenario? there are many animals, horses, squirels, cats, dogs, mice, and so. Am I to believe that the keen witted PCs will notice that raccoon under that bush making gestures? maybe, but doubt it. They will NEED a reason to notice something out of the ordinary. Will this druid be a bear in an open field? if this character is of high enough lvl to cast this spell in the first place, they might have a concept of the benefits of blending in and hiding.
Also, how many people are 'experts' in animal behavior? Now, or in a fantasy setting? I had a cat for a while, she would do the strangest things at times, crawl around on the ground, make these strange noises, it was called 'heat'. It is even more difficult to do this because of the magical nature of the world, the animal could be many things. The MAIN people who Would have any reason to notice anything out the ordinary would be the ranger and the druid.