NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Micah Sweet]

I'm building an NPC adversary for a campaign (a cleric of Asmodeus), and their key Deity skill is deception.

But then it occurred to me that rolling to see if the NPC successfully deceived the PC's takes away player agency. That is, the player should be able to decide whether their PC believes the NPC or not.

So, from that perspective, social skill abilities for NPCs are a waste of a skill "slot". (Game mechanically speaking, not from a roleplay perspective)

Any thoughts on this? How do you/would you handle it?)

I would talk this over with your group in session zero, explain the logic of an individual with high social skill being able to potentially influence anyone, and that PCs are not somehow immune to that when everyone else in the world isn't. Good roleplaying can see the group and the campaign through it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think deception is different from fear and similar effects in that fear is a gut reaction whereas deception operates at an intellectual level.

If the players can tell that an NPC is not being truthful, they should be able to react accordingly.

Another example would be NPC persuasion. Should an NPC be able to convince a PC to give up their prized magic item simply on a roll of the dice? I'm guessing most players wouldn't voluntarily do that.

What if the players can, but the dice interacting with the rules of the game we're all playing indicate the PCs cannot?

 

[ElminstersApprentice]

If the NPC believes their own lies, then they don't need deception. They are telling the truth in their own mind. Perception is warped. This makes for a good villain.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If the NPC believes their own lies, then they don't need deception. They are telling the truth in their own mind. Perception is warped. This makes for a good villain.

Reminds me of Dukat from Deep Space Nine. Nobody believed their own lies like that guy!

 

[Distracted DM]

Reminds me of Dukat from Deep Space Nine. Nobody believed their own lies like that guy!

The Bajorans were lucky to have him!
edit: Also his old friend Sisko is lucky to have him- even if they are on opposite sides, they share a great mutual respect for one-another!

 

[Jd Smith1]

I run a long-term group, and I dont use D&D. How I handle this sort of thing is to make a hidden roll against the villain's social skill to determine how well he 'read' the PCs.

If he's successful, I target the player, not the PC. After years together, I know the buttons to push.

Watch the various debunker videos and/or documentaries for how charlatan 'mediums' read a crowd (including using light spying); its very useful in in handling NPCs. Because what you are describing is basically a con man.

 

[Distracted DM]

If he's successful, I target the player, not the PC. After years together, I know the buttons to push.

Yup. It's definitely something that comes with experience, but you can learn some from various sources... re: direct DnD advice I recall Matt Colville giving an example of how he'd manipulate (my words) his players, directing them/their assumptions without SAYING it explicitly.
I probably couldn't teach it well without making extensive notes, but I know how to do it most of the time. Sometimes I'm too transparent, or too opaque, and it backfires :'D

 

[cranberry]

OT: So I finalized the stats of the Cleric mentioned in the OP, and asked the Copilot, AI attached to Microsoft Edge to create a picture of a dwarf cleric of Asmodeus.

It returned a picture with a dwarf holding a mace with a pentagram on it, but also had crosses on it's stole and was carrying a stylized cross in the other hand.

I didn't ask for an indecisive cleric of Asmodeus who was considering converting....We're a long way from AI taking over the world.....

 

[Hriston]

OT: So I finalized the stats of the Cleric mentioned in the OP, and asked the Copilot, AI attached to Microsoft Edge to create a picture of a dwarf cleric of Asmodeus.

It returned a picture with a dwarf holding a mace with a pentagram on it, but also had crosses on it's stole and was carrying a stylized cross in the other hand.

I didn't ask for an indecisive cleric of Asmodeus who was considering converting....We're a long way from AI taking over the world.....

The crosses are for when they want to hide the truth of who they really work for.

 

[TiQuinn]

I'm building an NPC adversary for a campaign (a cleric of Asmodeus), and their key Deity skill is deception.

But then it occurred to me that rolling to see if the NPC successfully deceived the PC's takes away player agency. That is, the player should be able to decide whether their PC believes the NPC or not.

So, from that perspective, social skill abilities for NPCs are a waste of a skill "slot". (Game mechanically speaking, not from a roleplay perspective)

Any thoughts on this? How do you/would you handle it?)

Illusion abilities. The villain has the ability to make things not appear the way they really are. The player will have to be aware that something is being presented as an illusion.