D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Maxperson]

Perhaps you don't understand what a budget is.

I do. Nothing about a budget precludes going over on an individual encounter. The 5 rules give a suggested(not hard set) budget for the adventuring day. That does not mean that a deadly encounter can't be over the threshold by some amount.

In 5e at least, it says you CAN build individual encounters with a budget, not that you have to. Even if you do use that budget, nothing says you can't budget enough to go over the deadly threshold. You're assuming things that 5.5e says that 5e does not, which is not to go over the amount given.

In fact, that's probably why 5.5e removed the word threshold. If they have included the word threshold and then said don't go over the specific number, it would have been contradicting itself.

 

[ECMO3]

I do. Nothing about a budget precludes going over on an individual encounter. The 5 rules give a suggested(not hard set) budget for the adventuring day. That does not mean that a deadly encounter can't be over the threshold by some amount.

Actually it means the amount of XP is the budget for that encounter or that day. If my budget for a new car is $20k and I buy a $250k Mercedes I did not buy according to my budget. If my budget for a deadly encounter is 5500xp and I throw a 62,000xp Red Dragon at the party, that is not an encounter designed according to the guidelines in the 5E encounter design critera in either 2014 or 2024

Further the post that you replied to explicitly used the wording "high difficulty encounter" from the 2024 DMG, not the 2014 DMG. If your reply only applied when using 2014 encounter design criteria you should have said that or put a caveat as such since this is a 2024 forum and my post used the 2024 wording.

In 5e at least, it says you CAN build individual encounters with a budget, not that you have to.

You can do anything you want. The 2014 encounter design criteria are not very good and there are numerous threads on this, but it is factually incorrect to state there are no guidelines or design norms for encounters even when using those outdated and ineffective rules.

Even if you do use that budget, nothing says you can't budget enough to go over the deadly threshold.

No but there clearly is a budget and if you are going over that budget you are not adhering to it.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually it means the amount of XP is the budget for that encounter or that day. If my budget for a new car is $20k and I buy a $250k Mercedes I did not buy according to my budget. If my budget for a deadly encounter is 5500xp and I throw a 62,000xp Red Dragon at the party, that is not an encounter designed according to the guidelines in the 5E encounter design critera in either 2014 or 2014

Your budget is what you the DM make it in 5e. If you budget 5000xp, then you have 5000xp. If you budget 15,000xp for the encounter, then your budget is 15,000. The threshold chart in the 5e DMG doesn't limit what you are able to budget.

What's more, you are the DM. If you budget that 5500xp and find a great encounter at 6100xp, there's nothing in RAW that prevents you from making that your new budget.

You can do anything you want. The 2014 encounter design criteria are not very good and there are numerous threads on this, but it is factually incorrect to state there are no guidelines or design norms for encounters when using those outdated and ineffective rules.

Those guidelines and norms use threshold, which automatically means that the numbers on the chart can be exceeded. That's what a threshold is.

 

[ECMO3]

Your budget is what you the DM make it in 5e. If you budget 5000xp, then you have 5000xp.

No it is not. Now you are just making things up.

"You can build an encounter if you know its desired difficulty. The party’s XP thresholds give you an XP budget that you can spend on monsters to build easy, medium, hard, and deadly encounters." (2014 DMG p81-82)

If you are using the ineffective outdated rules for encounter design the XP threshold gives you the budget for one encounter and the daily table gives you the budget for the whole day. Using these criteria, if you have a party of five 5th level characters the XP budget for a deadly encounter is 5500xp. If you choose not to use it that is fine, but then you are going outside the "design norms" as noted in the outdated 2014 DMG.

To circle back on my original claim - "In the modern* game party healing often outpaces those [AOE] save effects"

That was true when I stated it and it is true now regardless of which rules you are using to design encounters.

* FWIW "modern" implies 2024

 

[Maxperson]

No it is not. Now you are just making things up.

"You can build an encounter if you know its desired difficulty. The party’s XP thresholds give you an XP budget that you can spend on monsters to build easy, medium, hard, and deadly encounters." (2014 DMG p81-82)

If you have a party of 5 5th level characters the XP budget for a deadly encounter is 5500xp. If you choose not to use it that is fine, but then you are going outside the "design norms" as noted in the outdated 2014 DMG.

You are emphasizing the wrong portion of that sentence, taking it out of context.

"The party’s XP thresholds give you an XP budget that you can spend on monsters."

You don't have to use those as your budget. You can, but it's not required. And here's another one that you avoided in order to cherry pick the first one.

"BUILDING ENCOUNTERS ON A BUDGET
You can build an encounter if you know its desired difficulty."

Again, can build. Not required to build. The whole budget thing is optional and up to the DM to use, and if he does, how much he actually wants to budget. He CAN follow the guidelines, or he CAN put in any other number he wants.

Both of those are in a section on building encounters on a budget. But you can also build encounters while not on a budget, in which case you don't use that optional section.

 

[ECMO3]

You are emphasizing the wrong portion of that sentence, taking it out of context.

"The party’s XP thresholds give you an XP budget that you can spend on monsters."

You don't have to use those as your budget. You can, but it's not required. And here's another one that you avoided in order to cherry pick the first one.

You don't have to follow the guidelines and encounter design norms, you CAN do whatever you want. But saying you don't have to follow them is not the same as them not existing. You can throw 4 adult Dragons and a Terrasque against a party of 1st level PCs if you want. But encounter design norms do exist and you are not building encounters according to the design norms of you are doing that ... even if you are using the ineffective 2014 encounter design rules.

To circle back on my original claim - "In the modern game* party healing often outpaces those [AOE] save effects"

That was true when I stated it and it is true now regardless of which rules you are using to design encounters.

* FWIW "modern game" implies 2024, especially since this is in a 2024 specific forum.