Furn_Darkside
First Post
Gothmog said:
Unless I missed something Soul said- paladins don't serve gods in 3e unless they choose to align themselves with one.
FD
NPC's insulting Paladin PC. Long...sorry.
- Thread starter SoulStorm
- Start date
Unless I missed something Soul said- paladins don't serve gods in 3e unless they choose to align themselves with one.
FD
Aaron L
Hero
Insulting a paladin, who is a blessed servant of a god, could be taken as a direct insult against the god, And if the paladin is continually insulted, then I would hope the paladin would do something. Challenging one of the insulters to a duel and then trouncing them seems like a fine idea to me.
And if you don't use the idea that paladins serve gods, then a servant of Law and Good sure as heck would be justified in teaching rude louts to be civil.
And if you don't use the idea that paladins serve gods, then a servant of Law and Good sure as heck would be justified in teaching rude louts to be civil.
DaemonBolo
First Post
I have seen some good and bad advice on this subject. I would tend to agree that you should talk to the GM. It almost sounds like you worked yourself into a frenzy. I agree with the comment that GMing is hard, especially with Paladin PCs. A few solutions present themselves that may help both you and your GM.
Provide a code. Most people who play Paladins assume that the GM knows exactly how they will act. Paladins can be different from the standard norm and your Paladin seems very different than a normal Paladin. Write your Code and give it to the GM. If he knows exactly what you believe, then he will know how to mold the situations in the campaign.
Unlike others, I would tend to shy away from bad-mouthing someone that I have never met. After all, we're getting one side of the story here. However, it makes sense to talk to the guy and get his opinion on the matter. Is he open to discussion? have you discussed things with him before? It make be that he had a bad day or got caught in the moment. I would discuss things with him calmly and rationally. If take him on when you're still angry, then you may put him on the defensive and that could be bad for the both of you.
Discuss things with the group. You said the NPCs were insulting? How was the group reacting? Were they defending you? Were they going along with the insults? If the latter, then the GM may have been involved in some friendly ribbing. If the other PCs were defending you, then the guy may have a problem. However, it could be a combination of both of you. Maybe you take your character too seriously, while he does not take it seriously enough. Both could cause problems.
Does he insult your character often? Does he insult you on a regular basis? Does he make fun of your personally outside of the game? It's important to find out if he acts that way all the time. If he does, then leave the game, because he will never stop.
However, you mentioned that he publicly stated concerns. That sound like he threw something out for discussion. That was the statement that made me think you let things boil up. If he states his concerns publicly, then he may be open for discussion. Most GMs I know who do this are concerned enough about the game to want feedback.
Finally, does the group insult NPCs? This could be a backlash from their previous dealings with those people. Also, as a Paladin, do you actively seek to stop your comrades from insulting NPCs. If not, then he may see no reason not to throw insults back. As a Paladin, you should protect other peoples honor just like your own. If your party dishonors people, then people will insult them and you just for association. One way to prevent this would be to step in when the party is doing something that would insult/dishonor a NPC.
You should support your GM. If he has stated concerns about PCs being insulting, then as a Paladin, you should stamp that out. That is a way for you to solve a problem in-game and support the GM at the same time. The GM can only do some much as one person against a group.
If you never support your GM publically, then it becomes players versus GM and he may feel overwhelmed. He is a member of the group too and you should treat him with respect, just as you want him to treat you with respect. If all the players oppose him, then it becomes hard to feel as if he is an equal or the servant of the party.
Some thoughts from someone who has been there.
Bolo's rock!
Provide a code. Most people who play Paladins assume that the GM knows exactly how they will act. Paladins can be different from the standard norm and your Paladin seems very different than a normal Paladin. Write your Code and give it to the GM. If he knows exactly what you believe, then he will know how to mold the situations in the campaign.
Unlike others, I would tend to shy away from bad-mouthing someone that I have never met. After all, we're getting one side of the story here. However, it makes sense to talk to the guy and get his opinion on the matter. Is he open to discussion? have you discussed things with him before? It make be that he had a bad day or got caught in the moment. I would discuss things with him calmly and rationally. If take him on when you're still angry, then you may put him on the defensive and that could be bad for the both of you.
Discuss things with the group. You said the NPCs were insulting? How was the group reacting? Were they defending you? Were they going along with the insults? If the latter, then the GM may have been involved in some friendly ribbing. If the other PCs were defending you, then the guy may have a problem. However, it could be a combination of both of you. Maybe you take your character too seriously, while he does not take it seriously enough. Both could cause problems.
Does he insult your character often? Does he insult you on a regular basis? Does he make fun of your personally outside of the game? It's important to find out if he acts that way all the time. If he does, then leave the game, because he will never stop.
However, you mentioned that he publicly stated concerns. That sound like he threw something out for discussion. That was the statement that made me think you let things boil up. If he states his concerns publicly, then he may be open for discussion. Most GMs I know who do this are concerned enough about the game to want feedback.
Finally, does the group insult NPCs? This could be a backlash from their previous dealings with those people. Also, as a Paladin, do you actively seek to stop your comrades from insulting NPCs. If not, then he may see no reason not to throw insults back. As a Paladin, you should protect other peoples honor just like your own. If your party dishonors people, then people will insult them and you just for association. One way to prevent this would be to step in when the party is doing something that would insult/dishonor a NPC.
You should support your GM. If he has stated concerns about PCs being insulting, then as a Paladin, you should stamp that out. That is a way for you to solve a problem in-game and support the GM at the same time. The GM can only do some much as one person against a group.
If you never support your GM publically, then it becomes players versus GM and he may feel overwhelmed. He is a member of the group too and you should treat him with respect, just as you want him to treat you with respect. If all the players oppose him, then it becomes hard to feel as if he is an equal or the servant of the party.
Some thoughts from someone who has been there.
Bolo's rock!
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
I've been in a similar situation, SoulStorm. I can definitely relate.
My namesake, Pielorinho, was a 15-year-old wizard who practically wore a button saying, "Everything I needed to know I learned in musty old tomes with big words." To reflect this, I spoke constantly using ten-dollar words in convoluted sentences. It helped that it was a PBEM game, in which I could compose his elaborate speech.
NPCs in the game didn't take him very seriously, and they grew more and more insulting, until one session's insults were so blistering that it threw me into a foul mood for most of the next day. My GM wrote me an email that night saying she hoped there were no hard feelings.
Actually, I wrote back, there were. What the heck was up with the abuse?
It turned out that she thought I was using 10-dollar words to reflect the fact that my character was an arrogant jerk looking down his nose at everyone, that he was being insufferable and mocking people who didn't know the meaning of prolix. So I talked to her, described how I saw him as a naive little boy who was speaking how he thought adults were supposed to speak and who was honestly clueless that most people didn't know what he was talking about.
After that, NPCs responded to me as the naive little boy instead of as an arrogant tweaker, and the game was much more fun for everyone.
Moral of the story? Maybe you and the DM have different concepts of how the PC is acting. Maybe the DM doesn't realize how the NPC abuse is making the game less fun for you. Be up-front with im about it, and hopefully you can solve the problem amicably.
If not, tell him to meet you at dawn, and bring a second.
Daniel
My namesake, Pielorinho, was a 15-year-old wizard who practically wore a button saying, "Everything I needed to know I learned in musty old tomes with big words." To reflect this, I spoke constantly using ten-dollar words in convoluted sentences. It helped that it was a PBEM game, in which I could compose his elaborate speech.
NPCs in the game didn't take him very seriously, and they grew more and more insulting, until one session's insults were so blistering that it threw me into a foul mood for most of the next day. My GM wrote me an email that night saying she hoped there were no hard feelings.
Actually, I wrote back, there were. What the heck was up with the abuse?
It turned out that she thought I was using 10-dollar words to reflect the fact that my character was an arrogant jerk looking down his nose at everyone, that he was being insufferable and mocking people who didn't know the meaning of prolix. So I talked to her, described how I saw him as a naive little boy who was speaking how he thought adults were supposed to speak and who was honestly clueless that most people didn't know what he was talking about.
After that, NPCs responded to me as the naive little boy instead of as an arrogant tweaker, and the game was much more fun for everyone.
Moral of the story? Maybe you and the DM have different concepts of how the PC is acting. Maybe the DM doesn't realize how the NPC abuse is making the game less fun for you. Be up-front with im about it, and hopefully you can solve the problem amicably.
If not, tell him to meet you at dawn, and bring a second.
Daniel
reapersaurus
Explorer
Just wanted to throw my support firmly in the Paladin player's court.
It is fairly obvious to me from what you've said (of course, we haven't heard from your DM, so this IS one-sided) that basically: You know how to play a Paladin PC and he doesn't.
I'll tell you, from being a freak for Paladin threads on these boards for a long time, I'll tell you this: MANY people just don't understand Paladins.
They can not wrap their minds around the concept of a character that is not looking out primarily for themselves, or what they can get out of a situation.
And a critical point: the DM WAS Metagaming when he said you would die.
Actually, what I would have been pissed about as a player is that some nameless, faceless NPC sets us up and convinces the King that we're bad (and should be Killed?! WTF?!). Meanwhile, the fact that you're playing a PALADIN is kind of overlooked.
In my eyes, the one PC that's fairly immune to these kinds of plots is the Paladin.
The DM shouldn't be using those ham-handed plots with a paladin in the group.
Question - did you ever have the "Paladin Talk" with this DM?
The more I read, the more I feel it key that the player and the DM are closely agreed on the way a Paladin can affect a game (and therefore a story).
Solution, before I ramble much more:
You should talk, Out-of-Game, with this DM, in a very non-confrontational, advisory way. You are asking his advice, not the other way around.
Once you understand his approach, feelings, and possible biases about paladins, then you can both work toward finding a middle ground for this particular campaign.
Remember, you are not changing your whole approach to playing a paladin - you are perhaps having to modify the way you play this particular paladin, in this particular game.
It is fairly obvious to me from what you've said (of course, we haven't heard from your DM, so this IS one-sided) that basically: You know how to play a Paladin PC and he doesn't.
I'll tell you, from being a freak for Paladin threads on these boards for a long time, I'll tell you this: MANY people just don't understand Paladins.
They can not wrap their minds around the concept of a character that is not looking out primarily for themselves, or what they can get out of a situation.
And a critical point: the DM WAS Metagaming when he said you would die.
Actually, what I would have been pissed about as a player is that some nameless, faceless NPC sets us up and convinces the King that we're bad (and should be Killed?! WTF?!). Meanwhile, the fact that you're playing a PALADIN is kind of overlooked.
In my eyes, the one PC that's fairly immune to these kinds of plots is the Paladin.
The DM shouldn't be using those ham-handed plots with a paladin in the group.
Question - did you ever have the "Paladin Talk" with this DM?
The more I read, the more I feel it key that the player and the DM are closely agreed on the way a Paladin can affect a game (and therefore a story).
Solution, before I ramble much more:
You should talk, Out-of-Game, with this DM, in a very non-confrontational, advisory way. You are asking his advice, not the other way around.
Once you understand his approach, feelings, and possible biases about paladins, then you can both work toward finding a middle ground for this particular campaign.
Remember, you are not changing your whole approach to playing a paladin - you are perhaps having to modify the way you play this particular paladin, in this particular game.
kengar
First Post
If it makes you feel any better...
While it sounds as though the main issue is the NPC/DM attitudes & insults. As far as your Paladin's reaction, this might help you and your DM understand why (IMHO) your character acted correctly when the warrant was issued.
[From the PHB]
Now, to me, that sounds like your character had little choice but to try and appear before the court.
While it sounds as though the main issue is the NPC/DM attitudes & insults. As far as your Paladin's reaction, this might help you and your DM understand why (IMHO) your character acted correctly when the warrant was issued.
[From the PHB]
Now, to me, that sounds like your character had little choice but to try and appear before the court.
DaemonBolo
First Post
I agree that he probably had little choice in wanting to appear before court. However, it also sounds as if he had cause to believe that warrant to be unlawful. This sounds like a major dilemma for a Paladin.
In any event, if the GM thought that the PC may get killed should he follow a certain path, then I see how this could cause problems. Getting killed in a fight may one thing, but killed just for walking into the arms of the law is another. The GM could have been afraid of making the Paladin mad by arbitrary action.
Of course, I love to stick up for the little guy and the GM obviously had had no say in the matter. It could be helpful if you asked him to post a reply. If you have talked to him since your last post, then I would be interested to see how it turned out.
I still think it a good idea to write out your code for the GM. Just make sure to let him know your exact beliefs. If he has a problem with it, then you can work it out in a genial manner. I think you both have communication issues. As I said before, dealing with it in character by having the Paladin object could be useful, or just write a note to the GM and say that you feel that something wrong is happening. That way it does not have to wait for you to get mad, nor do you have to do it in front of everyone.
Obviously, I identify with both people. I think both people have room to improve. The GM should not make you feel as if you cannot play your PC, but you should make sure to let him know of any problems.
I cannot say enough that you should support him and vice versa. He may be insulting the party because they are be combative. If he feels that it is him versus the players, then he will be automatically on the defensive. If that is the case, then you should support him and make him feel as if you are all roleplaying together, rather than a war between two opposing factions. or he just may not know he is doing it.
Personally, I had a great GM quit because her players always made her feel as if she was at war with them rather than having fun as a group. A game should be fun for all, including the GM. I think that talking with him and making an effort to support him could go a long way to clearing up these problems you've had.
Bolo's forever!
In any event, if the GM thought that the PC may get killed should he follow a certain path, then I see how this could cause problems. Getting killed in a fight may one thing, but killed just for walking into the arms of the law is another. The GM could have been afraid of making the Paladin mad by arbitrary action.
Of course, I love to stick up for the little guy and the GM obviously had had no say in the matter. It could be helpful if you asked him to post a reply. If you have talked to him since your last post, then I would be interested to see how it turned out.
I still think it a good idea to write out your code for the GM. Just make sure to let him know your exact beliefs. If he has a problem with it, then you can work it out in a genial manner. I think you both have communication issues. As I said before, dealing with it in character by having the Paladin object could be useful, or just write a note to the GM and say that you feel that something wrong is happening. That way it does not have to wait for you to get mad, nor do you have to do it in front of everyone.
Obviously, I identify with both people. I think both people have room to improve. The GM should not make you feel as if you cannot play your PC, but you should make sure to let him know of any problems.
I cannot say enough that you should support him and vice versa. He may be insulting the party because they are be combative. If he feels that it is him versus the players, then he will be automatically on the defensive. If that is the case, then you should support him and make him feel as if you are all roleplaying together, rather than a war between two opposing factions. or he just may not know he is doing it.
Personally, I had a great GM quit because her players always made her feel as if she was at war with them rather than having fun as a group. A game should be fun for all, including the GM. I think that talking with him and making an effort to support him could go a long way to clearing up these problems you've had.
Bolo's forever!
Whodat
First Post
It isn’t always easy playing a Lawful Good character – especially a paladin, even under the best of situations. It sounds like you did the right thing by playing your character well AND sticking to your guns, even though it would have been easier to run and hide.
Does your DM have something against lawful and/or good characters? I hope he is taking your indomitable virtue into consideration when he awards experience.
And if you're right, and this is just a power-trip, then don't go out and find a new group. Why go to all that trouble? Simply remind your friend that his tenure as DM will come to an end – soon! This works best when you give him that “thousand-yard stare” and a cold smile when you do it.
Heh.
Does your DM have something against lawful and/or good characters? I hope he is taking your indomitable virtue into consideration when he awards experience.
And if you're right, and this is just a power-trip, then don't go out and find a new group. Why go to all that trouble? Simply remind your friend that his tenure as DM will come to an end – soon! This works best when you give him that “thousand-yard stare” and a cold smile when you do it.
Heh.
Thanks for all the great advise guys. I did talk to the DM. He was actually very cool about the whole thing. It turns out many of the comments were because he was afraid my character was going to get killed and he wanted to avoid having that happen. I made it clear that I was more concerned about playing the character correctly than whether the character survived or not. Unfortunately, he's used to gaming with players who are a little more petty about such things and hasn't quite absorbed the concept that I'm not going to take the death of a character personally. What I will take personally, however, is people telling me the way I play my character is stupid.
He was also upset about another PC who attempted to torture a prisoner during interrogation. That's not really the kind of stuff he wants in his game. Of course, the Paladin prevented that from happening and verbally thrashed the character for his wicked ways.
Essentially, the DM wasn't having a great day. He now has a much better understanding of how I play a Paladin and what I expect as a player. On the flip side, I'll try to be more of a help to him in making sure the game is heading in a direction which will be fun for all, including the DM.
I've let him know about this thread, so maybe he'll pop his head in at some point. He really is a good guy who didn't even know the effect he was having on my demeanor, so don't be too harsh, ok?
He was also upset about another PC who attempted to torture a prisoner during interrogation. That's not really the kind of stuff he wants in his game. Of course, the Paladin prevented that from happening and verbally thrashed the character for his wicked ways.
Essentially, the DM wasn't having a great day. He now has a much better understanding of how I play a Paladin and what I expect as a player. On the flip side, I'll try to be more of a help to him in making sure the game is heading in a direction which will be fun for all, including the DM.
I've let him know about this thread, so maybe he'll pop his head in at some point. He really is a good guy who didn't even know the effect he was having on my demeanor, so don't be too harsh, ok?
NoOneofConsequence
First Post
I don't know if this will help exactly, since the end result is loss of character, but there's an argument that says, for a paladin, death is not the ultimate negative outcome. If your character dies doing the right thing, this is actually a highly positive outcome (yes, I know that the vast majority of adventurers see death as a set back, but as has been noted many times, paladins are different).
If your character believed that the legal system - ie the King - was good and just, then taking your concerns to the King was appropriate. A paladin should trust a legal system until he has reason to believe that it's not just.
I guess my point is, I support your handling of the situation.
Also, I know you don't want meta-game advice, but if this guy uses his npcs as a way to power trip then you're going to suffer at his hands no matter what you do. If this is how he gets off then believe it, he's gonna get off doing it. Even if you don't want to quit his group, you may want to switch from a paladin, 'coz ain't nuthin' attracts abuse like a paladin.
If your character believed that the legal system - ie the King - was good and just, then taking your concerns to the King was appropriate. A paladin should trust a legal system until he has reason to believe that it's not just.
I guess my point is, I support your handling of the situation.
Also, I know you don't want meta-game advice, but if this guy uses his npcs as a way to power trip then you're going to suffer at his hands no matter what you do. If this is how he gets off then believe it, he's gonna get off doing it. Even if you don't want to quit his group, you may want to switch from a paladin, 'coz ain't nuthin' attracts abuse like a paladin.
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