Nudity in RPG books?

[hunter1828]

I -- and this thread -- am not particularly concerned about what does not appear in books.

Notice that I said "Some of it published in gaming books, some of it merely posted on the artists web site", implying that, obviously, some of what I refered to was published and that the unpublished, by my use of the word "merely" didn't carry the same weight. Or maybe it wasn't obvious. :\

Lots in books? I have a lot of RPG books, and find your estimation of "lots" faulty.

Give me some time and I'll go through my entire gaming book collection (mostly D&D, various editions) and cite book and page for artwork of a "sorceress or elf" that does not, IMO, look like a Playboy model.

The discussion of how playboy models have evolved over the years in largely irrelevant. I merely used that to singify a young and sexually attractive woman. Which most nude (or scantily clad) pics in RPG books depict.

When you mentioned that apparently no artwork of a sorceress or elf exists that doesn't resemble a Playboy model, I thought it relevant to point out that Playboy models come in many ages and shapes, therefore it's not easy to pin down what artwork does and does not resemble them.

Hunter

 

[hunter1828]

wow, you sure do know alot about your Playboys...

Thank you, thank you.

Actually, it was just a matter of a Google search for "playboy playmate age, vital statisitics" that led me to the magazine's websites own Playmate FAQ.

Hunter

 

[hunter1828]

actually some of his facts are incorrect. there is an older playmate than Rebecca...

i happen to have every Playboy centerfold from beginning to present....

If my facts are incorrect, then Playboy itself is incorrect as they came straight from the official Playboy web site's own Playmate FAQ. Check it out yourself if you do not believe me, though I won't post a link as I don't think it would be appreciated by some.

Hunter

 

[Desdichado]

Let everyone, and I mean everyone, satisfy their basic human need to know what our bodies look like unclothed. I intend to have the needed nudity in my project rendered fully with dignity and glory.

Ummm, weren't we all supposed to stop preaching our agendas relative to nudity in this thread?

Oh, and hunter1828, methinks you may be a tad purposefully obtuse if you really don't know what Psion meant when he said women in RPG art look like Playboy centerfolds.

 

[hunter1828]

Oh, and hunter1828, methinks you may be a tad purposefully obtuse if you really don't know what Psion meant when he said women in RPG art look like Playboy centerfolds.

Or perhaps I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement...

Hunter

 

[Grodd JoJoJo]

Hey, I'm almost certain someone's mentioned this already, but here goes...

I have absolutely no problem with cheesecake on the cover of a book, though I would prefer it to be consistent with the setting. I've been with D&D a long while, and, to an extent, "Dragon Magazine cover" was prectically synonymous with cheesecake. Mind you, the cheesecake in question was primarily done by Caldwell and Elmore, and those same covers wound up in the "Art of Dragon Magazine" book. No one had any huge problems with it, and, if someone did, I didn't see anything in the letters to the editors, though it's certainly possible Dragon didn't publish any.

Heck, let's take it a step further - the original DM's Guide had cheesecake, though it was barely visible. The female adventurer in the efreet's hand is wearing some decidedly abbreviated armor.

In a way, cheesecake was an honored D&D tradition. Oh, BTW, Dragon also had nudity on its covers - though it was generally from the side.

 

[Desdichado]

Or perhaps I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement...

I'm sorry; in my opinion, all you did was make your own statement appear pedantic rather than Psion's statement appear absurd, IMO. Nobody's arguing that the standards of beauty are so stringent that a fairly wide variety of women will still be beautiful.

But then again, they're not so loose as to allow just about anyone illustrated for an RPG supplement to either be an old hag or a steamy siren. If you want to look for a statement that's potentially provable as flimsy and patently wrong, I think you'll have better luck pursuing that angle instead. Although I agree with him for the most part; women in RPG art have largely been objectified and stereotyped rather than done "realistically."

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Anyway, my opinion is that nudity in RPGs should not be artificially inflated...

OK, OK, I have to admit the 16-year-old boy in me snorted his lunch at the monitor when he read that. The 33-year-old father-of-3-year-old-twins in me says "why not nude-up, everyone's naked under their clothes". D&D 1st edition had its fair share of nudie pictures (I recall the elf being undressed by a giant sundew in module A1 Against the Slavers, and there's a few in Deities and Demigods), and they did me no harm as a young, impressionable teenager. D&D 2nd edition has none, from recollection, probably because of the particular editorial practices of TSR at the time. I had thought we'd got past the paternalistic and hypocritical attitudes of the 80s and 90s.

My 3-year-olds have a fascination for my D&D monster books, because they contain pictures of "dragons". I occasionally bring the books out as a treat to show them the pictures of dragons and dragon-like monsters, many of which are good pieces of artwork. I deliberately skip over the scary pictures around "D", like some of the demon and devil entries. Although it hasn't come up yet, I do not think I'd have the same aversion to the picture of the nymph, for example.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

PS I thought the poll was intended a joke, so I'm not sure why people are so down on it.

 

[hunter1828]

I'm sorry; in my opinion, all you did was make your own statement appear pedantic rather than Psion's statement appear absurd, IMO. Nobody's arguing that the standards of beauty are so stringent that a fairly wide variety of women will still be beautiful.

But then again, they're not so loose as to allow just about anyone illustrated for an RPG supplement to either be an old hag or a steamy siren. If you want to look for a statement that's potentially provable as flimsy and patently wrong, I think you'll have better luck pursuing that angle instead. Although I agree with him for the most part; women in RPG art have largely been objectified and stereotyped rather than done "realistically."

Well, IMO making a statement that every elf and sorceress in an RPG book looks like a Playboy model is like saying that all dogs illustrated in an RPG book look like purebred blueribbon winners. It's an assumption that goes beyond the so-called standards of beauty to assume 1) that the person making the statement knows without a doubt what all artwork in the various RPG products look like, and 2)that the person making the statement assumes that there is no possible variation in his chosen comparison subject.

I've seen plenty of elves in RPG books that look nothing like the models in the Playboys I own. For instance, the Player's Handbook alone has an elf on p.13, p.34, p.56, p.99, and p.163. None are built like any Playboy model I've seen, none are made up like the Playboy models I've seen, and none are as naked as the Playboy models I've seen.

Actually, the best example of a wide variance of types of women in an RPG book is Larry Elmore's Women of the Wild, one of his latest artbooks that includes d20 stats for each of the women illustrated. The range from very attractive women to old crones to middle aged to children. That book alone throws out Psion's statement. Then there is Green Ronin's Witch's Handbook which includes a wide variety of witches, from young and lovely to old hags. Or their Noble's Handbook, which includes both young and middle-aged noblewomen. Or how about the old Volo's Guide series for the Forgotten Realms which had a WIDE range of types of women, from young to old, beautiful to ugly, small to large.

When someone is going to make a comment that ALL RPG art looks a certain way, they need to make sure they aren't just looking at the art on the covers of product released by certain companies infamous for tittilating imagery, but actually looking through a wide variety of products, from many publishers, over many years.

Hunter

 

[Hemlock Stones]

The Frankness Of It All

GREETINGS!

What a can of worms eh!? Nudity is meant to be enjoyed by those who can deal with it. If you can't handle it, then don't look. Now on to the meat and potatoes.

I'm not so sure that images involving nudity, accuarate or not, are necessary. Were talking about fantasy content here people. The images of warriors are wholly inaccurate. I don't for one minute look at other forms of media as seriously accurate. Spider Man in the movies sure makes all that web swinging look possible. Gee I hope my child doesn't try his hand at webslinging.

When you apply historical accuracy to the cultures created in role playing games certain lines are drawn and eventually crossed. How many of you applied what the Mayans did to sacrifices in the games you played? It has happened. It is horriffic and evil. It's in someways more frightening than any of the creative and imaginative horrors produced in the realm of role playing games.

Incorporating naked images into the role playing game environment achieves what? Most of the hard cover books are costing $25 and up. Most of those publishers are struggling. Rather than making a better product, why not market it to a different audience? All that has to be done is to draw in the people interested in nudity. The pornography industry is a multi-billion dollar a year success. Everybody knows even bad pornography sells. The role playing game industry is rife with with bad ideas and content that doesn't sell. Throw in some nudity and the role playing game industry has an instant success right?

Why not leave unto Flynt that which is his and that which belongs to Gygax his? Everybody that enjoys role playing games knows that the devious mind of the DM can bring whatever is necessary to the campaign to make the players brains pop like a champagne cork.

Bone Daddy Hath Spoke!