OA Samuri

[Sejs]

Oh, that's just beautiful. Thank you.

Heh, gladly.

Of course, you would be grievously insulting your honorable opponent, which could mean all sorts of unpleasant things.

"My deepest appologies. I did not draw my katana because I did not want to give the impression that I thought myself nearly as fine a swordsman as you."

 

[Prince of Happiness]

A, a samurai's problem:

Honor before Duty or Duty before Honor?

Usually it's taken as a lump. Doing your duty is honor. If you feel ashamed and dishonored about doing your duty, afterwards, you commit seppuku. Ideally. Realistically, you go to the other side of the island as a ronin and set up a shop or go farming.

Note in the tale of the 47 Ronin, Oishi Kuranosuke, thoroughly dishonored himself (drunkard, whoring, failure to respond to insult and challenge) in order to lull Kotsuke no Suke into a false sense of security. He did this so that he could fulfill his duty to avenge his master. So, duty before honor, honor will come from faithful duty anyways.

 

[Thalia]

Note in the tale of the 47 Ronin, Oishi Kuranosuke, thoroughly dishonored himself (drunkard, whoring, failure to respond to insult and challenge) in order to lull Kotsuke no Suke into a false sense of security. He did this so that he could fulfill his duty to avenge his master. So, duty before honor, honor will come from faithful duty anyways.

The point being, though, that he was Ronin, not Samurai. That tale is a tragedy, not a description of Bushido. The reason Kotsuke no Suke was 'lulled' is exactly because a Samurai would never dishonor himself in such a way. But, evidently, a Ronin would.

 

[hong]

The point being, though, that he was Ronin, not Samurai. That tale is a tragedy, not a description of Bushido. The reason Kotsuke no Suke was 'lulled' is exactly because a Samurai would never dishonor himself in such a way. But, evidently, a Ronin would.

Of course, the tale can also be read as saying that honour takes many guises, and the obvious interpretation of what constitutes honour may not be the only valid one.

 

[mercucio]

If, like myself, you truly believe in Bushido, your honor is not determined by whether or not you were "caught" using a low skill or displaying fear or disobeying your daimyo. In your heart you know if you have reached the standard of honor or not.

I will not stoop to disguise. I can bluff in combat but I will not tell a lie. I am trained in diplomacy but I use these skills without transgressing the dictates of my honor.

If I must strike a foe, I do so to the best of my ability. I can strike any part of that foe including his or her vulnerable areas. The samurai school of my family taught me well. I know where to place my blows. I wield a powerful weapon.

I do not use poison unless I am given a direct command by my daimyo -- the same rule exactly holds for committing seppuku. Neither has yet been requested of me. Either command would be followed without a moment's hesitation.

Those outside my clan often think that the way of the Scorpion is easier than careful adherence to the tenets of Bushido. They are very gravely mistaken. Our way is far more complicated and difficult. The right thing is rarely the easiest option.

Bayushi Saigo
Scorpion Clan Samurai

Forgive me, but <rofl>.

You sound like a pompous Crane making excuses. Go read Way of the Scorpion and Secrets of the Scorpion (if you don't have 'em, go read the L5R fiction on Alderac's website). A Scorpion does what he has to fufill his duty, even if it is nasty, unpleasant, or dishonorable. There is a reason why Hantei asked Bayushi to watch the shadows--because he knew in order to maintain the empire honorable most sometimes commit dishonorable deeds.

 

[silentspace]

The point being, though, that he was Ronin, not Samurai. That tale is a tragedy, not a description of Bushido. The reason Kotsuke no Suke was 'lulled' is exactly because a Samurai would never dishonor himself in such a way. But, evidently, a Ronin would.

Plus, following bushido (as I understand it), the samurai has already dishonored himself by surviving his master/allowing himself to become a ronin. The samurai isn't supposed to survive to avenge his master later. He's supposed to give his life to protect/avenge his master when he was killed!

 

[Prince of Happiness]

The point being, though, that he was Ronin, not Samurai. That tale is a tragedy, not a description of Bushido. The reason Kotsuke no Suke was 'lulled' is exactly because a Samurai would never dishonor himself in such a way. But, evidently, a Ronin would.

The Tale of the 47 Ronin isn't a tragedy. They're admired, not mourned. You mourn victims of tragedy, you don't honor them. They became Ronin through the injustice of their master's death, not of their choice or release, but still carried out their duty. They were ronin by default, not by declaration. Even though their master was dead they were still "his samurai," even if the people at large didn't see it as such. By avenging him, and committing seppuku afterwards, they were doing their duty, and that is Bushido.

Oishi Kuranosuke's dishonorable acts were at first perceived by Kotsuke no Suke as a bluff, but when it went on longer than he had perceived, that's when he fell for the bluff. They've all read Sun Tzu's Art of War, so he was expecting something like this to happen.

The Satsuma samurai (the Satsuma samurais were renowned for their skill and adherence to Bushido) who insulted Oishi Kuranosuke, realizing after the fact that Oishi Kuranosuke actually was doing his duty, had committed seppuku to atone for disrespecting Oishi Kuranosuke. He's buried with them, hence why there's 48 graves in the grave of the 47 Ronin.

 

[mercucio]

Plus, following bushido (as I understand it), the samurai has already dishonored himself by surviving his master/allowing himself to become a ronin. The samurai isn't supposed to survive to avenge his master later. He's supposed to give his life to protect/avenge his master when he was killed!

My, I am replying too much today.

Sometimes a samurai fails in this duty--he can be knocked unconcious, poisoned, posted away from his lord, ect. In these cases it is assumed the samurai has lost heaven's favor. He can commit seppuku, try to avenge his lord, or walk away.

Remember, ronin means "wave man" (ro = wave, nin = person). This means the ronin has no master, not that he has lost his samurai status. He still carries the daisho. In order to lose samurai status the ronin would have to lose or have his katana and wakizashi destroyed. It is also possible to become ronin for the duration of a musha shugyo (warrior pilgrimage) but I digress.

However, it is not impossible for a samurai to redeem himself.

 

[Treebore]

The Crab Samurai i have mentioned does use the tetsubo, but our DM says Iaijutso duels are only for Katana's, no other weapon allowed. Personally, I agree, Iaijutsu is all about honor, and your Katana, even for a Crab, IS your honor. To use anything else would be dishonorable.

As for Scorpion Samurai being honorable. They are, but even they will throw it away on a moments notice if the dishonorable actions are deemed necessary for the good of the Empire or Clan. Look at the founding histories of the Scorpion, and why the Emperor said that the Scorpion Clan is so necessary for the survival of the Empire.

And Ronin can definitely be a Samurai, just without a master. Usually honor demands they stay alive to fulfill the dictates of honor. Once honor has been fulfilled, and fulfilling it did not kill them, then they can commit Seppuku and die with the honor they deserve.

However Ronin can also be Samurai who have forfeited honor in order to live their now meaningless life. They are to be killed like the scum most Ronin are.

In Rokugan, Ronin can find a life on the wall with the Crab, or can be used as tools by the Scorpion Clan. Or they can become Monks.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

We're not playing rokugana nd i haven't got the rokugan book but whats the courtier like?

Totally useless in combat (hardly better than a commoner) but with superior social skills.

Also seen as its not rokugan I won't be able to be a Scorpion samuri but thats the kind of concept i was thinking, a character to whom personal honour is not as important as the good of the family and empire.

Sounds like a Scorpion to me. Or a Daidoji Harrier. Or a lot of other groupings in the Empire.

I realise i should have given some of the information above in the earlier post to make things clearer but thanks for all responses so far and please keep them coming. One thing im curious about is why the "heavy" recommendation against Iaijutsu Focus, i was under the impression i could use it to gain more damage in the first round of combat?

Iaijutsu is intended for duels, not normal combat. Especially if you play in Rokugan, it just doesn't really fit into non-duel situations. If you want to use it, you should adhere to the additional restrictions that are found in some rokugani books:
Iaijutsu works only in the following situations:
- When both characters strike in a formal Iaijutsu Duel. (both get their strike - assuming the loser survives the winner's strike and it's not only for first blood), both are flat-footed and can't use any ability to prevent that
- As a full-round action when the character is drawing his weapon as his first action for the combat and has a haigher init. The opponent must be flat-footed and the action draws an AoO
- When using on an inanimate object (full-round action)

For the most part though, a Scorpion who would sacrifice their honor for the good of the empire wouldn't be a samurai character class. He'd be something else, though he would be of the samurai social class.
The actual samurai character class members who are part of the Scorpion clan would probably not be the ones sacrificing their honor by doing the dirty deeds that they think need to be done. They'd be part of the public face of the Scorpion clan's honor, the ones who actually walk the walk of bushido...

Remember that you can give up one of the seven virtues of bushido and still be a samurai, but you must commit yourself even more to another virtue. A Scorpion samurai's code of conduct could mean that they give up their "honor" and commit themselves to "duty"