D&D 5E Observations and opinions after 8 levels and a dragon fight

Can blindsight see through walls? So long as the range is far enough I mean.
As long as there is a route around the wall, yep.

It's not X-ray vision though. So complete cut off nope. It will see everything within its range.
The rules text (Basic DM rules, p 4) says "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius."

Nothing there suggests that the presence or absence of a route around the wall matters: the key words are "surroudnings . . . within a specific radius". If you think stuff on the other side of a wall counts as surroudings, then blindsight perceives it. If you think stuff on the other side of a wall does not count as surroudings, then blinsight doesn't perceive it.

Personally I'd go the second way.
 

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There's blogs and articles about why Defy Danger is absolutely wrong for adjudicating stealth and it should all be handled through fictional positioning and GM moves. (A discussion notably absent in the DW rules, IMO.)

I agree that Defy Danger with Dex only fits a very small subset of stealth rolls in DW.

However, this is where custom moves are your friend. Contrary to some claims, you don't need them pre-prepared (in fact, I think this runs contrary to the 'play to find out what happens' principle) and the game explicitly tells you to 'take your time'.

When you try to sneak across the courtyard roll +sharp...
When you attempt to blend in with Dremmer's guards roll +cool...

The 10+ is easy (you succeed)
the 6- is often easy (MC gets to make a move)
So usually it's only the 7-9 where you really have to think hard about the specific game state, the fiction which matters to that player, and come up with some stakes which interest both you and them.

I'll spend 5 minutes doing that as often as I need. I'm running Apocalypse World right now and the players are loving it and happy to give me the time.
 

There is no vague meaning. Perceive means detect. Blindsight does not say "detect location", but perceive surroundings as in everything. Stealth doesn't work against them within the range. It's not a vague rule. Not sure why anyone is trying to make it one. There is no Blindsense and Blindsight now.

You can stealth on someone with truesight. But not Blindsight. Nowhere does it say perceives with hearing. So moving silently is irrelevant.

At this point in time barring any clarification from the developers, if you are within a dragons Blindsight range it knows you're there whether Stealthing, invisible, or what not. It's not even something open for discussion unless you're somehow arguing the meaning of the word perceive.

Bizarre.

Having sight allows me to "perceive my surroundings." That does not infer "perceive everything". That is your interpolation.

A non-vague rule would be for it to say "stealth does not work against blindsight", but that is not stated.

I can't read the rule is saying anything other than "you are not disadvantaged by a lack of vision." I don't see anything about a "sense absolutely everything in all ways within range."
 

As long as there is a route around the wall, yep.

It's not X-ray vision though. So complete cut off nope. It will see everything within its range. Doors, pebbles on the ground, trapdoors, secret doors, invisible creatures, chairs, open doorways. Blindsight is the equivalent of Daredevil's radar sense absent further explanation on how you might defeat which might or might not be provided on a creature by creature basis. Oozes might detect using strange sensory organs. Bats using sonar. Dragons might a combination of smell, sensitive touch that detects air movement, hearing, and other sensory organs. The ability does not explain the specifics. From what I can tell it is exactly like Blindsight in 3rd edition/Pathfinder, not like Blindsense. Blindsight picked up everything in its range. Abilities that relied on sight like Stealth and invisibility did not work against it.

Not even sure why this is a discussion myself. Blindsight in 5E is the same as 3E. They chose not to have an intermediate Blindsense for the Smaug versus Bilbo effect. You would have to ask the designers why they made that choice.

If this is true, then why bother having Truesight? What does Truesight give you that Blindsight does not. It would seem to me that Blindsight is even better than Truesight because now you can see through doors, look inside a chest, whatever.

Now, in your view, would something behind a wall have enough cover to allow stealth?
 

Let's take a look at the Monster Manual and see how it treats Blindsight:

"A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius."

"Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons.

"If a monster is naturally blind, it has a parenthetical note to this effect, indicating that the radius of its blindsight defines the maximum range of its perception."

Then let's look at how the MM treats these creatures sensory capacity. The Grimlock is a great example as it gets more detail:

Grimlock Fluff:

"A grimlock's ears prick up at the faintest footfall or whisper echoing down stone passageways."

The odors of sweat, flesh, and blood awaken its hunger, and it can track by such scents like a bloodhound. To enhance their senses, grim locks leave trails of blood, piles of dung, or the viscera of slain prey in places far from their lairs. When intruders pass through those areas, they carry the foul scents with them, warning the grimlocks of their approach."

"For most creatures, blindness is an enormous hindrance. For a grimlock with its other heightened senses, sightlessness is a boon. A grimlock isn't fooled by visual illusions or misperceptions. It is fearless as it stalks prey."


Grimlock Crunch:

"Senses: blindsight 30 feet. Or 10 feet while deafened."

"Blind Senses. The grim lock can't use its blindsight while deafened and unable to smell."

"Keen Hearing and Smell. The grim lock has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell."

Very little to suggest an uber sense that detects everything. What we have here is the image of a predator that does not suffer the drawbacks that can come with sight yet functions just as well as seeing creatures. Except, if you cut out hearing and smell, it is close to helpless.

The sense I am taking from it is one that mechanically basically operates as if it weren't blind, yet differently. Stealth against such a creature would have to target hearing and smell, a difficult task given its natural advantage on such checks. But not impossible. In fact, given that they have advantage on these senses and not automatic "I sense it all" makes it pretty clear to me that their blindsight is not a flawless uber-sense.

Bats have similar, though more restricted conditions - Advantage on hearing, loss of blindsight while deaf.

Other critters with blindsight include snakes, centipedes, crabs, beetles, spiders, scorpions, whales and various magical constructs and oozes.

The latter two aside, this gives us a good idea of what blindsight is meant to emulate: Not an uber-sense, but rather a catch-all category for those who operate without sight yet function just as well as seeing creatures. As for how exactly, and how a stealthy sneak can evade this sense, I'd suggest that depends on the source of Blindsight and how these senses work. Even to the point of allowing that not all blindsight is necessarily created equal. Some may be superior to vision, others more restricted.
 
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A non-vague rule would be for it to say "stealth does not work against blindsight", but that is not stated.

It kind of is, in a round about way. The rogue has blindsense, which specifically says it detects hidden and invisible creatures. So we can infer that if blindsight were able to do such a thing, the rogue's power would just be called blindsight and they wouldn't have come up with another term.
 

Ratskinner and @pemerton, just a few more thoughts to hopefully clarify (pemerton has my position correct - I find DW's cognitive workload to be extremely minimal, and intuitive, relative to a game like 5e). I would say that I'm puzzled by people trying to shoehorn DD (Dex) into solely the few small words that are given in the descrption (...by getting out of the way or acting fast...), but I suppose I shouldn't be as folks can find a way to argue about virtually anything on games. I think the lines of evidence that support Dex as the applicable attribute and Defy Danger as the applicable default move for "skulking in shadows or from obstruction to obstruction" are infinitely stronger than any other school of thought. However, if that isn't sufficient, as chaochou has noted, you could easily write up a Stealth move (that would use...drum roll...Dex) if you feel so inclined.




On cognitive requirements and process:

What I meant to convey was that Dungeon World's conflict resolution and 4e's Skill Challenges are very much kindred spirits. What's more, the procedure for escalation of events by the GM is similar to MHRP's (with 1s rolled and the deployment of gained dice from the doom pool being the analogue to failures accrued and attendant dramatic momentum in a SC or soft moves for 7-9 and hard moves from a 6-) You've got specific components that are meant to observed: the mechanical framework/resolution scheme, player action declarations + the deployed moves/resources that accompany them, and the GM principles that bind and guide a GM's response. The triggers and keywords of the game tech all focus on (a) the immediate fictional situation and (b) an abstract response to it until the situation resolves itself (both mechanically and fictionally).

Conversely, on the cognitive requirements and process of running and playing a game like 5e, there are parts that intersect that are extremely specific and crunchy (such as concealment and how light/objects interface with it, movement rates, action economy, etc) and then squishier/vague areas that must be interpreted (such as how does this PC ability or that item interface with, or allow for bypassing of, this codified and specific part?). You can't just focus on the fiction and your GMing principles/agenda almost exclusively, let the conflict resolution chassis do the heavy lifting of adjudication, and just let the game snowball from those play procedures.

For some, the cognitive processes that underwrite the 5e/AD&D kind of gaming experience is a feature (described as liberating or GM empowering). The GM gets to play his heavy role in rules adjudication and play outcomes and the players get to deploy their crunchy bits and bobs and try to defeat the GM's challenges (and sometimes his reasoning for a ruling!). For others, they are not a feature and something more akin to the fiction-first, abstract conflict resolution model of DW, 4e SCs, MHRP (or DitV), and its attedant mental overhead and involved cognitive processes, is more to their liking. But the two are very different from one another. Hence the cognitive dissonance suffered when one plays 4e/DW/MHRP with the expectations and mental framework that is predisposed towards the 5e/AD&D model, or vice versa.




On the resolution of a stealth conflict in DW:

I was assuming that "stealth" was referring to the genre trope of "slinking along in a hallway/alley/forest, moving from shadow to shadow/obstruction to obstruction, in attempt to evade detection by sentinels, bystanders, or pursuit." The imminent danger being "detection by sentinels, bystanders, or pursuit (and whatever trouble comes with that)." In an exciting stealth conflict, this won't be the only bit of trouble/adversity that one has to deal with and it won't be the only approach. However, that is the default scenario that comes to mind (for me) when someone invokes "stealth."

If there is no "imminent danger", then you're effectively "saying yes" to a player's action declaration to be stealthy. As such, no dice are being rolled...no conflict is being resolved. You can extend that conflict-neutral scene for as long as you'd like, but as soon as there is conflict to be resolved or some form of antagonism, "imminent danger", interposes itself between the PC and his/her goal (swiping a Macguffin, infiltration or exfiltration of a protected structure), then the resolution mechanics are consulted, dice are rolled, danger is defied (or not), and something interesting happens as a result.

Regarding there being multiple types of stealth conflict and multiple ways to deal with them, I don't think many folks (if any) would disagree with that. Some quick and dirty examples off the top of my head:

* Perhaps the stealthy infiltration requires the climb of a huge wall. The player is certainly going to be Defying Danger there, but they'll be using Strength rather than Dexterity.

* Perhaps the PCs hear some guards coming down the hall and they're trapped in a room. They look around (Discern Realities) for a place to hide or something that is useful to them. They find some tunics and helms hanging on the wall; the garb of the soldiers that patrol the keep. They attempt to Defy Danger, (Int) with quick thinking, as they throw the gear on and do the Han/Luke thing, portraying themselves as keep soldiers when they deal with the imminent danger of the guards coming into the room.

In DW (just like in 4e and other conflict resolution games), any good infil/exfil conflict may involve all manner of subterfuge, skulking, and skulldugery. But the scenes that require the dice to be consulted for outcome are the ones where (1) some form of legitimate antagonism prevents the PCs from achieving their sought end and (2) something interesting will come out of the two agendas/forces colliding. In those cases, I'm either using Defy Danger (Dex) to skulk quietly from shadow to shadow/obstruction to obstruction or I would quickly generate a world move (perhaps with earned hold to spend on generating or denying a few varying outcomes) to find out what happens when. Most of the time, Defy Danger (Dex) will do the job just fine.
 

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], while you're right about the distinction between 5e and DW, I think it would be easy for a 5e DM to blur the line, if he's so inclined, by ruling based on desired outcomes rather than proceeding from fiddly causes to effect.
I believe 5e to be robust enough to give both a "skilled play" experience when sought (something DW can't offer imo), while not getting too much in the way of a "fiction first" if you are ready to borrow some tricks from 4e.
(It IS a pity such tricks, such as skill challenges, the disease and artifact tracks are not explicitly included, but you can trivially plug them in)
Stealth, and this thread, is a good example of what I mean, and I think Mearls and co left the rules vague precisely to enable these multiple takes. An explicit nod to these multiple styles would have gone a long way, but I guess it would have done more harm than good with the players base.
 

@Manbearcat, while you're right about the distinction between 5e and DW, I think it would be easy for a 5e DM to blur the line, if he's so inclined, by ruling based on desired outcomes rather than proceeding from fiddly causes to effect.
I believe 5e to be robust enough to give both a "skilled play" experience when sought (something DW can't offer imo), while not getting too much in the way of a "fiction first" if you are ready to borrow some tricks from 4e.
(It IS a pity such tricks, such as skill challenges, the disease and artifact tracks are not explicitly included, but you can trivially plug them in)
Stealth, and this thread, is a good example of what I mean, and I think Mearls and co left the rules vague precisely to enable these multiple takes. An explicit nod to these multiple styles would have gone a long way, but I guess it would have done more harm than good with the players base.

Hey Cyberen. I certainly agree that 5e is infinitely more equipped than DW for the type of RC/1e "skilled play" that those system push play towards (and Gygax advocates for). I know that DW is advertised as a love letter to D&D (which I think it is) but as a "story now" engine, its not built around the play agenda that Gygax had in mind. I mean, certain facets of play certainly are about resource management (Spells, HPs, Ammo, Adventuring Gear, Rations, etc) but this is a very, very different sort of setup in terms of zoom (DWs resources are extremely abstract and meant to be so), pacing implications, the implication on player action declarations, and the way that management plays into everything else (specifically the positive feedback of failure). My 1e and RC dungeon crawls look and play nothing like my DW games. I can imagine someone sitting down and observing my table and commenting that they can see that they're both from the same family, but definitely separated at birth.

Its difficult to say how well 5e could push play toward DW's agenda and total experience. I can certainly see that Mearls, Crawford, et al had some of that in mind (specifically w/ bonds, ideals, flaws providing advantage and the Backgrounds setup), but I really think it would take a fair bit of work to sync everything together harmoniously. So much plays into the table experience. You'd have to mod the task resolution system into a robust conflict resolution system. You'd need to establish the DCs required for outright success vs success with complications (and a GM soft move) vs failure with some not so tidy fallout (and a GM hard move). And of course PC builds would need to have their math inclined toward funneling play mostly at the 5e equivalent of a 7-9 DW outcome. Then there is the xp feedback system. Then there is the fact that D&D combat has an action economy while noncombat conflict resolution doesn't have an equivalent (same issue 4e suffers from when trying to transition directly to/from an SC into the hardcore combat system). You need keyword tech to coordinate all of the abstractions, robust math in the basic engine and in the PC build schemes, clear GMing principles and play agenda, and a strong feedback system that incentivizes players such that they are inclined to play their thematic hooks to the hilt, come hell or high-water, and such that they aren't paralyzed into optimization due to the prospects of brutally punitive fallout for failure.

I mean, it could do it, but it wouldn't do it anywhere near harmoniously enough where I would think someone that loves DW would say "ahhh...well...this is close enough I guess". I feel the same way about 5e and 4e. There are just too many round pegs, square holes and vice versa. If you want the totality of each of those experiences, I think having each game would be preferable.
 
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Here's another, of equal interest (to me, at least).

What if that wall is glass, i.e. a window? Does that change the answer?

I don't think there is a definitive answer because blindsight comes from different sources for different creatures.

It seems fair to say a bat could not see through a pane of glass with blindsight: from a basic understanding of echolocation it would detect a flat surface. But what about a dragon? A grell? An ooze? More difficult to say because the source senses vary, if they are indicated at all. For example, the grell descriptive text mentions that it senses electric fields (among other things), so it might be able to detect certain things through glass or some other materials.

Because it's trying to lump a few different things under one mechanic it's something that's going to be down to interpretation. I'm okay with that, although it does put an onus on the DM to be consistent, even if only with rulings for particular creatures; it may have been better for them to make the ability a little more concrete.
 

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