Occidental Adventures

[resistor]

There's also a significant difference in the storytelling traditions between Western and Eastern cultures. Just take a look at the difference between American (and other western) computer RPGs and Japanese ones.

 

[ProfessorPain]

Except that you don't have to go back much more than a century (and in some cases - rural France, the rural South, Latin America, etc - not even that) for the cultural distinction you mention here to be pretty much unnoticable. You aren't picking up on a cultural distinction that is Western vs. Eastern, as much as it is post-industrial vs. pre-industrial. Nothing about the pre-industrial West anywhere in the West would have been different than what you describe. In fact, in most societies prior to the 20th century, it would be unusual for children to not live either in their Parents house or as neighbors on the same property or for an unwed woman to live anywhere but with her parents.

Fair enough. But this still shapes the fantasy worlds the respective cultures would create. Though there does seem to be a religious devotion to parents in Thailand, that is nothing like we had in west that I can think of. They have a very hierarchical view of people, and the parents are very high in that scheme. I also think that while parents in the west traditionally have had the final say on matters, she wouldn't even think of objecting to anything her parents suggest. So I do sense a strong cultural distinction. They often compare their parents to angels.

Also, is it fair to say it is pre-industrial vs. post industrial. I mean my wife comes from Bangkok, a fairly modern city. Not like she is herding animals in the country side or anything. I have found this same level of respect for parents with Japanese and Korean people I have met through my wife, and both those countries are highly modern.

 

[TwinBahamut]

There's also a significant difference in the storytelling traditions between Western and Eastern cultures. Just take a look at the difference between American (and other western) computer RPGs and Japanese ones.

I wouldn't agree with this. The distinction between Japanese and American/European videogame RPGs is far from a reflection of large historical traditions. If anything, it is merely a difference in style between two geographically separate groups, much like how every other artistic style or artistic movement tends to be specific to a geographic area.

In terms of history, the differences between the different regions in the stories people tell and the way they tell them tend to be far more subtle and minor, and generalizing it into a difference between "Western" storytelling traditions and "Eastern" storytelling traditions would be a grave mistake. I mean, even within just Japan there are a number of different conflicting traditions for storytelling, performance, and literature, and trying to lump just those together is a disservice. This isn't even getting into complexities like the fact that ancient Greek theater resembles various eastern forms of theater more than modern theater, yet Aristotle's writings about the theater of his time was a major influence upon many later forms of theater in the western world...

 

[resistor]

In terms of history, the differences between the different regions in the stories people tell and the way they tell them tend to be far more subtle and minor, and generalizing it into a difference between "Western" storytelling traditions and "Eastern" storytelling traditions would be a grave mistake. I mean, even within just Japan there are a number of different conflicting traditions for storytelling, performance, and literature, and trying to lump just those together is a disservice. This isn't even getting into complexities like the fact that ancient Greek theater resembles various eastern forms of theater more than modern theater, yet Aristotle's writings about the theater of his time was a major influence upon many later forms of theater in the western world...

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there were ONLY two traditions of storytelling, but rather that, were D&D invented in a different cultural context, it seems likely that the storytelling tradition it would be born into/from would be different as well. American vs. Japanese CRPGs was meant just as a specific instance of that.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there were ONLY two traditions of storytelling, but rather that, were D&D invented in a different cultural context, it seems likely that the storytelling tradition it would be born into/from would be different as well. American vs. Japanese CRPGs was meant just as a specific instance of that.

I suppose that is fair, but at the same time I think that the American vs. Japanese videogame/computer RPG distinction is proof that such influences are not as significant as you might think. After all, both American and Japanese videogame RPGs share the same root: Dungeons and Dragons. The most important and influential games in the early days of American videogame RPGs were all licensed D&D products set in familiar settings like the Forgotten Realms, and, while less official, the influence of D&D on early Japanese videogame RPGs is just as clear (among other things, the original Final Fantasy contains Bahamut, Tiamat, Elves, Dwarves, Drow, a Marilith, Mind Flayers, mages split into Black, White, and Red colors like in Dragonlance, and typically assumes that you have a four-man team consisting of a Fighter, a Thief, a Black Mage/Wizard, and a White Mage/Cleric). The main difference started with differing ideas on how to transform the D&D experience into a game, and diverge from there, mostly as a product of the preferences and goals of individual game designers.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Considering the stereotypes and historical inaccuracies in DnD regarding the assumed Western Middle Ages setting? I'd say about the same as we have now.

I pretty much agree with this. I'm finishing up my degree and I actually analyzed D&D culture in a project and lengthy paper for one of my tier 3 classes (I also got some great interviews from Monte Cook, Sean K. Reynolds, and Chris Pramas - thanks for the help guys!). One of the things I looked at was how D&D portrayed other cultures inaccurately. Obviously I was able to point to a number of areas where the portrayal of these cultures was grossly historically inaccurate.

But rather than take the approach that this was wrong in some way, I discussed a point that Sean K. Reynolds brought up, which is that you aren't actually trying to capture this culture accurately. It's more of a cultural homage. Perhapse you want to honor Persian culture by portraying a desert people who are mostly tribal, wear turbans, and are good at science and astronomy. Is it bad if you get many of the details wrong? What if you want to portray a society with honor-bound warriors who serve great warlords, as well as martial focused warriors and stealthy assassins? Is it bad if the details romanticize the culture rather than concentrate on specifics?

Finally, I also looked at how D&D was supposed to be a representation of the medieval period, and yet they made some pretty huge (but intentional) errors. For instance, the whole poly-theism thing was pretty much dead in Europe during the middle ages. The Catholic church claimed absolute dominion over everything (roughly) from ancient Rome to the North while the Byzantine church in Constantinople influenced areas to the East and the south - at least until Islam came along and clobbered it. In terms of monsters, deities, and overall flavor, D&D to me actually feels more like the ancient world that happens to have the technology of the middle ages. Since the Roman era was all about the Roman Empire, and D&D rarely focuses on empires, the feel of it seems more Greek than anything else.

So D&D gets a pass (or mostly a pass. There are some things I wouldn't like if I saw them. Fortunately I haven't seen them) from me when it comes to other cultures due to the fact that it gets western culture all wrong. There's little bits from Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, the middle ages, and the enlightenment, all thrown into this big cultural soup that never existed at any given time.

 

[S'mon]

The West basically abandoned class, or made it anachronistic, long before the East, because of religious, economic, and political reasons. (Instead many in the West were far longer fixed upon the idea of race, rather than class, in a way making race a sort of "de facto class" in many cases.)

Umm, that doesn't sound much like England. Here class still beats race in most social interactions, IME.

 

[Orius]

I also say it would look a lot like real D&D. It is not like D&D is remotely close to historical accuracy. Actually, I think the makers of various Oriental Adventures products were probably more interested in historical accuracy than the creators of core D&D were, and probably more so than the hypothetical Asian creators of D&D would be.

All of my experience with Japanese anime, manga, and videogames seems to back up that theory, at least.

I have to agree. Most of my view come from videogames,but from what little I see outside of it, western-flavored stuff often comes off as something very generic like D&D. Maybe it's because of unfamiliarity with aspects of the West, or maybe they're just imitating the way we do it ourselves in the West, which is also very generic.

 

[Jack7]

Umm, that doesn't sound much like England. Here class still beats race in most social interactions, IME.​

England would be the exception I can think of, because England has retained so much tradition from earlier political times. For instance they still obviously have a monarchy, even if it is just a figurehead in most respects.

From the Englishmen I know I would say though that class has become over time more and more a social affair rather than an overtly political and cultural one, that is in some respects England goes out of her way to want to appear "democratic." But from my experience it is still both the society most like the United States culturally, and in many respects very much unlike the US culturally. So you've got a good point. Things vary even when they change.

I think PP and Cele and others also brought up good points about cultural, political, societal, and religious conditions.

But one thing I have definitely noticed in game design is a general lack of mechanisms for change over time. As different cultures, races, religions, societies interact in the real world there is always change and alteration. Societies become more and more like each other in many respects but with many retaining the peculiar quirks of their historical background. As has already been discussed. In other respects though societies undergo huge change and modification through exposure to other cultures, religions, societies, institutions, and so forth.

I'm working on writing a game right now for the Conjunction contest that will address those problems in gaming. Because most games and settings tend to view milieu as basically static and unchanging. That is to say that once setting is established and cultures written out they tend to remain the same from then on, varying only in particulars like who is the individual ruler, etc. But in the real world whole societies, political structures, cultures, languages, ethnic groups and races, technologies, etc. undergo dramatic change. I am generalizing of course, but generally speaking, in-game, things remain static, unchanging, and boring by comparison.

For instance the church of today is not the church of early Christianity or medieval Christianity. Kings of the late medieval eras are not the same as kings of the early medieval eras. Technology varied widely over different time spans. Those societies that took place in the Crusades and Jihad became very different, over time, by being exposed to each other, to Judaism, and to other Near Eastern and African cultures than they would have been had they remained isolated from each other. Trade made a big difference in changing societies and even cultures.

In games where you have a setting that is basically static, and where there is little cross-cultural, inter-religious, and economic interaction then societies would be basically unchanging over time. But in settings and games where there is specific and intentional interaction between different societies, cultures, nation-states, economies, religions, and so forth there needs to be a built-in game mechanism for change. Both distinct change and wholesale change. World change even.

And not just cultural change. Professions would likewise change over time as societies and individuals do.

The early Knight is a very different thing than the later Knight. The cleric, if he could be called that, of the catacomb Christians was in some respects a totally different creature than the cleric of the high church right before the Renaissance.

So there need to be in-game mechanisms for change. For cultural change. Religious, societal, political, economic, professional. In my opinion it would make the game much, much, much more interesting.

 

[Celebrim]

Fair enough. But this still shapes the fantasy worlds the respective cultures would create. Though there does seem to be a religious devotion to parents in Thailand, that is nothing like we had in west that I can think of.

Really? Does any of the following sound familiar?

"Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee," Exodus 20:12.

"Honor thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee," Deuteronomy 5:16.

"Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father . . . ," Leviticus 19:3.

"My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother," Proverbs 1:8.

"Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old," Proverbs 23:22.

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor thy father and thy mother; which is the first commandment with promise; That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord," Ephesians 6:1-4.

"Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged," Colossians 3:20-21.

I would say that that is pretty hard core Western tradition there, certainly in any period from the West we usually think of as inspiring D&D. I think really we are looking at a cultural tradition in the West that barely is old enough to qualify as a tradition, and to the extent that it would inform a Westernized D&D setting I would find it an anachronism.

I also think that while parents in the west traditionally have had the final say on matters, she wouldn't even think of objecting to anything her parents suggest.

I know a modern American farm girl whose told me that if her parents objected to her choice of spouse, she'd break off an engagement. This isn't quite as traditional and conservative as the modern Korean college student who told me that she was anxious to return to Korea so that her parents would arrange a marriage for her with 'a nice boy', but its still extant.

They often compare their parents to angels.

That might be different. There is a strong streak of ancestor worship in much of the East that you don't really find in the West.

Also, is it fair to say it is pre-industrial vs. post industrial. I mean my wife comes from Bangkok, a fairly modern city. Not like she is herding animals in the country side or anything. I have found this same level of respect for parents with Japanese and Korean people I have met through my wife, and both those countries are highly modern.

Yes, but the modernity of both of those countries is pretty recent. I mean, for my part, I'm an American and not that old and my mother picked cotton. Through much of the south, mail was delivered by mule into the early 1950's. I can still remember when many people in the South didn't have a private phone and used well water: when my mother was a girl many homes didn't have electricity. I don't think that either Japan or Korea has a widespread industrial tradition that is much older than that of the American South. I don't know much about the history of Thailand, and I'll defer to your experience, but I'm guessing at late as 1975 they probably had ~80% of the labor force in agriculture. Get outside of Bangcock and possibly a few other urban centers with very fast growing 'Tiger' economies, and that's probably still true even today.

It's entirely possible that a post-Industrial Eastern culture will be vastly different than a post-Industrial Western culture, but I continue to think that the particular difference we are talking about wouldn't be remarked on by a wanderer passing from West to East before the 18th century certainly and probably not that much before the 20th.