Octopus wrasslin

[Pielorinho]

I'm a little confused on the combination of grappling rules and natural weapons. So let's take an example.

Bob dons his speedos and goes swimming. Once he gets underwater, a giant octopus sees him, lashes out with a tentacle, and successfully grapples him. Bob tries and fails to break the grapple. On the octopus's next full attack, what can it do?

1) Attack with opposed grapple checks:
1a) Make nine opposed grapple checks, all at full grapple bonus, each inflicting its constrict damage;
1b) Make eight opposed grapple checks, each inflicting its constrict damage;
1c) Make one opposed grapple check, inflicting its constrict damage?
1d) Make iterative grapple checks, inflicting constrict damage?
2) Attack with light weapons:
2a) Attack nine times, all attacks at -4
2b) Attack once at -4
3) Something else?

Here are the bits from the SRD that confuse me:

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
...

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
...
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

A comprehensive explanation would be great, but tying it back to the example and showing me what options the octopus has would be superb.

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Infiniti2000]

The octopus can:

1. Make two iterative opposed grapple checks to constrict: +15 and +10. Each one deals 2d8+6+1d4+5 (constrict + natural weapon). This uses the iterative grappling rules.

2. Attack with any one tentacle or bite at a -4 penalty. This uses the natural weapon single attack grappling rules.

3. Do any other grapple maneuver, such as pinning, moving the grapple, etc. He could combine these with #1 above, but not #2.

 

[Pielorinho]

Interesting, Infiniti. I NEVER Would have guessed at that damage for the grapple. That does seem to make grappling animals more reasonable without being ridiculous--and makes me want to start wildshaping into a dire bear!

Daniel

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's only because of the constrict, which adds to the natural weapon from the improved grab. A dire bear does not get constrict. In fact, if you attack in the order as listed there's probably a good chance you will claw, then grab, and then be done with your turn. Once grappling, you cannot continue with the remainder of the natural weapons. This is the reason I houserule #2 to include all natural weapons. (tangent...It shouldn't be a disadvantage for a natural grappler to actually grapple. Others contend it makes them too strong, but not IME and my wife plays a high level druid IMC. So, I have the experience.)

So, if you think you're gonna grab an opponent, you should bite first then attack with a claw. You can choose not to do a grab if you think you will hit with the other claw.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Actually, if the bear claws, then grapples, they can still use all of the rest of their attacks, at a -4, because they are now grappling. A creature using more than 1 natural attack is not two weapon fighting, and has no restriction on the number of attacks they can use, except for the one they are using to grapple.

The bear hits you, grabs you, and proceeds to maul you, all on its action.

The octupus would go grab, grapple, slam, slam, slam, slam, slam, slam, slam. Can you say ouch?

Or, it can try to grapple you at -20, then try to put the hurt on your friends that are attacking it as well.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Actually, if the bear claws, then grapples, they can still use all of the rest of their attacks, at a -4, because they are now grappling. A creature using more than 1 natural attack is not two weapon fighting, and has no restriction on the number of attacks they can use, except for the one they are using to grapple.

No, a creature can't, not by the rules (note that I houserule otherwise like you suggest). When grappling, "You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks." Note that this is singular. Also, while grappling, "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses." This would allow multiple attacks, but natural weapons do not use iterative attacks and thus you cannot choose this option with natural weapons.

Thus, there exists no mechanic to obtain multiple natural weapon attacks while grappling, except for performing multiple grapples (based on iterative attacks). This would deal non-lethal damage for a creature without Imp Grab or it would deal the natural weapon damage for a creature with Imp Grab (+ constrict if available).

Fwiw, the FAQ agrees:

How many attacks does a creature with multiple natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many grapple checks can it make in a round?

Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a –4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can attack with either a claw or its bite.

The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM 314).

A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size (1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth, plus its Strength modifier).

A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to +15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. The dire bear, for example, may make two grapple checks in place of attacks, thanks to its base attack bonus of +9: one using its full BAB and the second using its BAB –5.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

hmm, coulda sworn it said natural weapons, even after I read it again carefully.

oh well, any grapple monster my party comes up against always does the -20 and still we can't win, and then it does the slam slam slam.. etc.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Your friends are freedom of movement and/or grease.