If you want to capture the party, subdual combat is just about the least efficient way to go about it. Your average city guard should have at least one or two spellcasters available, to assist on difficult arrests. When they're on duty, the city armory should supply them with wands of nonlethal spells like Sleep, Web, Hold Person, and Color Spray.
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Odd Subdual Question (my players stay out)
- Thread starter Drawmack
- Start date
I think it depends entriely what level your party are.
If they are high level you're gonna have problems in taking them without some spell use.
I was thinking that they are low level, maybe even 1st in which case subdual damage is relatively easy to dish out and ensure that they go down quickly.
Datchi
If they are high level you're gonna have problems in taking them without some spell use.
I was thinking that they are low level, maybe even 1st in which case subdual damage is relatively easy to dish out and ensure that they go down quickly.
Datchi
Aaron2
Explorer
Give some of the guard Ranseurs (sp). They can disarm with reach.
I'm curious why you think your players will fight rather than give-up. If I was starting a new campaign and the first thing that happened is I was arested, I'd surrender. Its not like the character has anything invested in the game yet.
Aaron
I'm curious why you think your players will fight rather than give-up. If I was starting a new campaign and the first thing that happened is I was arested, I'd surrender. Its not like the character has anything invested in the game yet.
Aaron
Someone
Adventurer
The rules for inflicting subdual damage with weapons that deal normal damage are in page 135 of the PHB; you take a -4 penalty to hit, and it says nothing about the damage, so I always assumed it was the same.
And to make sure they are captured, make them awake from a nice sleep with four crossbows pointing to their heads. And have a wizard or cleric with a readied hold person, just to be sure.
And to make sure they are captured, make them awake from a nice sleep with four crossbows pointing to their heads. And have a wizard or cleric with a readied hold person, just to be sure.
Spatzimaus
First Post
I'm with the people who say subdual combat is A Bad Idea (tm). Why?
> Magical healing heals subdual really well, and chances are an adventuring party has more healing than the town guard.
> It's practically guaranteed to go lethal AND the party probably has more magic (and can therefore overcome the odds).
> Guards would work on the concept of implied power (i.e., mess with us and we'll call our 100 friends at the barracks and you'll never be in this town again). Either they'd bring overwhelming force (10:1) or they'd send a small group to politely ask the PCs to accompany them. If the PCs say no they're Persona Non Grata in this town, no violence.
(Conversation from Piratecat's Story Hour: "Why'd you leave our cell unlocked?" "Could you escape if you wanted to?" "Yes" "That's why.")
> If the Aristocrat wants to keep the theft a secret then not telling the guards might be okay, but if the person is trying to get the PCs to help them, having them beaten unconscious is NOT a good way to ask for help. Besides, it'd be even harder to keep a secret, since you've now had dozens of guards involved, possible fatalities, and having the PCs released from custody will look even more suspicious. If the PCs killed a guard in the "arrest" there's no way they'd be released to help.
And if it's NOT a secret, why not hire the PCs openly? It could even be subtle like having a town guard deliver a note.
Anyway, point is, subdual fighting is only good for bar brawls, where it's clear no one is trying to kill, or as a combat move when you want prisoners but aren't too picky.
> Magical healing heals subdual really well, and chances are an adventuring party has more healing than the town guard.
> It's practically guaranteed to go lethal AND the party probably has more magic (and can therefore overcome the odds).
> Guards would work on the concept of implied power (i.e., mess with us and we'll call our 100 friends at the barracks and you'll never be in this town again). Either they'd bring overwhelming force (10:1) or they'd send a small group to politely ask the PCs to accompany them. If the PCs say no they're Persona Non Grata in this town, no violence.
(Conversation from Piratecat's Story Hour: "Why'd you leave our cell unlocked?" "Could you escape if you wanted to?" "Yes" "That's why.")
> If the Aristocrat wants to keep the theft a secret then not telling the guards might be okay, but if the person is trying to get the PCs to help them, having them beaten unconscious is NOT a good way to ask for help. Besides, it'd be even harder to keep a secret, since you've now had dozens of guards involved, possible fatalities, and having the PCs released from custody will look even more suspicious. If the PCs killed a guard in the "arrest" there's no way they'd be released to help.
And if it's NOT a secret, why not hire the PCs openly? It could even be subtle like having a town guard deliver a note.
Anyway, point is, subdual fighting is only good for bar brawls, where it's clear no one is trying to kill, or as a combat move when you want prisoners but aren't too picky.
Drawmack
First Post
The party is level 1
The party has 0 clerics
The reason that the NPC doesn't send a note is because she wants everyone in the town to think she believes the PCs are guilty so the show is important. She doesn't want her dirty little secret uncovered. Remember that if the thieves guild is blackmailing her they have a reason to.
I play low magic and there are sever restriction on magic, how it is cast and how much damage it does, so I don't think that is a problem.
Also the PCs are going to be seated at a table with the guards surrounding them when the battle starts which equates to the guards all getting one bonk in on the PCs which at level one can knock out a lot of characters.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Hmm, level 1 party, no Clerics? And presumably no Druids, since they can heal too. And no Psions, because Concussion is the perfect spell for this sort of thing.
I think you'll still have a problem, because at level 1 your players feel vulnerable and have no real escape options (especially with low magic). Your players might be different, but in all the campaigns I've been in imprisonment is viewed as Not A Good Thing, the sort of thing to be resisted at all costs, especially if it's something the players know they're innocent of. Which means the players might resist with physical force (lethal, that is) which has long-lasting consequences.
All I was trying to say is that if the guards are level 1 also, they'd bring 30 or more men at once to ensure they win with no losses (or better yet, you surrender without a fight). If you're in the Army, when clearing a house you send in 20-30 men to ensure no casualties.
Now, if you were in a town where weapons were all peace-bonded on entry, this'd be a different thing. But, if the party is known to be armed, the guards wouldn't take chances, especially if the guards are only level 1 themselves and (presumably) have comparable equipment.
It all comes down, IMHO, to whether you WANT the players to resist. If no, send a lot more guards. If yes, realize that there's a good chance someone will die, and that most towns won't forgive cop-killers.
(Presumably you're running a town so corrupt that the guards will imprison people with no evidence on the word of an aristocrat? Or was the evidence faked, in which case the players might not get out of it to do the other job?)
I think you'll still have a problem, because at level 1 your players feel vulnerable and have no real escape options (especially with low magic). Your players might be different, but in all the campaigns I've been in imprisonment is viewed as Not A Good Thing, the sort of thing to be resisted at all costs, especially if it's something the players know they're innocent of. Which means the players might resist with physical force (lethal, that is) which has long-lasting consequences.
All I was trying to say is that if the guards are level 1 also, they'd bring 30 or more men at once to ensure they win with no losses (or better yet, you surrender without a fight). If you're in the Army, when clearing a house you send in 20-30 men to ensure no casualties.
Now, if you were in a town where weapons were all peace-bonded on entry, this'd be a different thing. But, if the party is known to be armed, the guards wouldn't take chances, especially if the guards are only level 1 themselves and (presumably) have comparable equipment.
It all comes down, IMHO, to whether you WANT the players to resist. If no, send a lot more guards. If yes, realize that there's a good chance someone will die, and that most towns won't forgive cop-killers.
(Presumably you're running a town so corrupt that the guards will imprison people with no evidence on the word of an aristocrat? Or was the evidence faked, in which case the players might not get out of it to do the other job?)
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