Of Clerics, Clergy & Lay Followers

[the_mighty_agrippa]

I've got a unique situation. My cleric is the titular head of the Mystran religion in Vaasa. He's spent the last year or so building up the faith, so much so that he has a pretty solid following and wields some political power. In addition, he has dominion over two baronies, giving him secular authority as well.

But that's less important to what I want to do. I want to mobilize my church around a recent act of evil, bending the combined efforts of the faithful towards preparing for a final confrontation. Not quite a crusade but almost.

How might I go about galvanizing the followers into action and what roles might I define for them? I'm looking for tithes, donations, information, etc.

Thanks!

 

[fusangite]

Insufficient data. Maybe you're referring to places and gods in a well-known packaged campaign world but to me, it's all gobbledy-gook. For a start, why don't you tell me what the political/religious system is like. Where and when in history is your environment most similar to?

 

[Tonguez]

Religion is all about Symbols - the Crusades had as its/their Symbol the Holy City of Jerusalem being overrun by *evil*

Your game will have this great 'Evil' and the effect (real or imagined) it has on the True Beleivers! The Clergy will go out and whip up some religious fervour, your Lay followers will whisper rumours amongst themselves and soon you will have militant cleric types marching to war - a holy Jihad!

A few mercenaries to round out the forces - mmmm

 

[Silveras]

Insufficient data. Maybe you're referring to places and gods in a well-known packaged campaign world but to me, it's all gobbledy-gook. For a start, why don't you tell me what the political/religious system is like. Where and when in history is your environment most similar to?

Fusangite is quite correct; most people here will need more information.

Vaasa is a region in the Forgotten Realms. In the official timeline, it was ruled until recently by a Necromancer Witch-King, through undead and demonic hordes. The Bloodstone Pass series of modules (AD&D 1st Ed. + Battlesystem) was about 1) defending the neighboring realm of Damara from attacks, 2)defeating the Witch-King, and 3) entering the Abyss to defeat his demonic master (Orcus). While Damara has been recovering, IIRC Vaasa has remained a largely lawless wilderness with occasional roaming packs of undead.

With that in mind, the Mystran religion (Mystra is the NG goddess of magic in FR) would likely be a small "colony" of converts led by this missionary cleric.

 

[fusangite]

Fusangite is quite correct; most people here will need more information.

Vaasa is a region in the Forgotten Realms. In the official timeline, it was ruled until recently by a Necromancer Witch-King, through undead and demonic hordes. The Bloodstone Pass series of modules (AD&D 1st Ed. + Battlesystem) was about 1) defending the neighboring realm of Damara from attacks, 2)defeating the Witch-King, and 3) entering the Abyss to defeat his demonic master (Orcus). While Damara has been recovering, IIRC Vaasa has remained a largely lawless wilderness with occasional roaming packs of undead.

With that in mind, the Mystran religion (Mystra is the NG goddess of magic in FR) would likely be a small "colony" of converts led by this missionary cleric.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll have to bow out of helping. I have trouble working with FR; the campaign universe doesn't really make sense to me so it's hard for me to make guesses about how things work in it. Good luck, though!

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

My bad. I wanted to keep it as generic as possible but it seems I went overboard. I'm playing in a highly modified version of the Realms.

My cleric became the de facto leader of the Mystran faith (the Goddess of Magic) when the temple was razed. Since then, he has rebuilt the temple, liberated two baronies and been granted land & title by the King.

In game mechanics, he has Leadership and has a keen mind for trade & diplomacy. I'm playing much like a wise cowboy; he's very American in a John Wayne kind of way but just as wise as he is unbending.

Currently, he is Earl of two baronies, which affords him some secular power. In addition, he is the head of the church, with dozens of followers under his protection plus everyday worshippers. Since it's the Goddess of Magic, he undoubtedly has some arcanists in the pool of the faithful as well.

Within 6 months, a gate to the Abyss will open and demons will be walking all over the place. He's partially responsible for sealing it temporarily and charged with making sure it stays that way. He's already taken steps to prepare for the coming battle, but I have only recently started at flexing his political/theological muscle.

What can a religious leader do without ending up with a bunch of zealots?

Thanks!

 

[Silveras]

We're still short of information, I am afraid.

It sounds like your personal entourage is already well beyond the recruitment of Followers under the Leadership feat.

You said "heavily modified". Without elaborating, that means we don't know if the history is modified, the rules are modified, or both are modified.

You said your character is the "head of the Mystran faith " -- is that a worldwide status, or a just a regional truth ? What level is your Cleric ? Is this an Epic game ?

Further, withouth knowing how your DM is managing domains, it is hard to make recommendations for what you can do. Typically, domain management includes the rules on what forces you can raise, how expensive it is, what your income is, and so on. You can see some of those issues discussed in this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67365. The rules set in use will dictate a lot about what you can and can't do.

At the most elementary level, the Followers from Leadership and the general population of your holdings are *not* a fighting force. Generally, probably 5-10 % of them could be mustered as soldiers of some sort, and that would start cutting into income (because they are not working the fields, etc.). Tithes ? Commoners (the vast majority of the population, usually) typically earn low wages -- you might get a few silvers per person per year this way. If this sounds vague, it is because the actual numbers are dependent upon the rules your DM is using. If they are house rules, we can't offer much advice on them.

If you are looking for a fighting force, then you may need to go adventuring to acquire huge amounts of money with which to hire lots of mercenaries.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

I'm not really interested in a fighting force. I'm more interested in generalities. It would be great to expand the church's role and power without using magic to get it.

How can I motivate the lay worshippers as a political force?
How can I expand the church's role in the feudal-based power structure?
How can I create an Age of Enlightenment?
How can I launch a cultural crusade (like abolition or something)?
How can I grow the church without street corner prostelytizing?

And in the event that I do need to motivate the faithful for an upcoming battle but not for direct combat...

How do I prepare them for the coming of a great evil (probably extraplanar)?
Should I begin training some for medicinal/triage duties?

Not every suggestion needs to work or be viable for this one game. I'm looking for how apply personal charisma & reputation to large groups in a fantasy setting that's not just die & mechanics based.

 

[Greybar]

How can I motivate the lay worshippers as a political force?
How can I expand the church's role in the feudal-based power structure?
How can I create an Age of Enlightenment?
How can I launch a cultural crusade (like abolition or something)?
How can I grow the church without street corner prostelytizing?

Motivating people to the point where they will lay their life down, without prostelytizing, will be quite a challenge.

Do everything you can to make people know about the threat so that they are ready and willing to mobilize. Downside: "Demons from the Abyss? - that's it, I'm leaving for the next country over."
This is where your Diplomacy skills kick in. I believe there are some big-effect enchantment type spells that could help (think of them as divine inspiration more than tricky manipulation of the wills of the little folk).

Choose from your followers those who can lead and send them off to gather forces and prepare defenses. Your GM may like this because then he can handle those stories off-scene. Are their border forts to be build/reinforced? Train lots of people is good - having a pile of Cleric1 and Cleric2's around may not stop a demon, but it will help in the long run.

Make sure you can convince the other nobles that preparing for this is in their best interest. This means lots of face-to-face meetings. They may ask you to do little things for them to prove your worth, but don't just be their tool to fight each other. How's your relationship with that king?

Age of Enlightenment ain't gonna happen in 6 months. If you bend your will to changing the society for the next 30 years, you'll have a good start. Found colleges and encourage people to challenge even you - their spiritual leader.

In short, aim for the short term 6 month goal. Your broad social plans can guide that, but if you don't stop the demons they won't matter, and if you do stop the demons you'll have even more social standing to shape the culture.

sounds like a fun and rich campaign. Good luck!

john

 

[Silveras]

I'm not really interested in a fighting force. I'm more interested in generalities. It would be great to expand the church's role and power without using magic to get it.

Ok, well, most such techniques take time ... generations, in the real world. In that case, the six months you have before the gate opens doesn't allow for much progress.

How can I motivate the lay worshippers as a political force?

That depends on what you mean by a political force. In the Birthright rules, for example, Clerics and Druids can use their position to influence the loyalty of the people toward other rulers. Generally, this is done by preaching about how clearly "the king" supports the tenets of the religion. However, to effect a regional influence, you need to have all the lesser priests preaching the same message -- coordination is key.

If you mean "How can I make the lay worshippers into activists", well, that's a very modern concept. First, you would have to (re-)invent Democracy, Republics, some sort of restraint on the power of monarchs (like the Magna Carta), support the rise of a middle class, extend property rights to them, and more.

Of course, depending on how modified this campaign is, some of that may already exist. In the standard FR, the default government style is still some variation on medieval monarchy; politics the jockeying of kingdoms/ earldoms/ churches among each other -- the populace has little active involvement, aside from being loyal to one or another faction.

How can I expand the church's role in the feudal-based power structure?

By owning land. In a feudal system, nothing counts as much as "who owns the land". Historically, the Catholic church in Europe gained a lot of its influence when believers started leaving their land to it instead of to their children. In some ways, the Catholic Church was the first multi-national corporation, being based in Rome but owning enormous amounts of land in other areas.

Most fantasy games will not see a single religion reach that level of influence, though, because most games work with a polytheistic system, and more than 1 member the pantheon is usually allied (and thus found working in the same lands).

How can I create an Age of Enlightenment?

You can start by leading by example ... hire or sponsor artists and thinkers to come to your lands and practice their craft. This is not a good return-on-investment type of arrangement; it will be a drain on your resources for a return that will (likely) not be realized for generations.

How can I launch a cultural crusade (like abolition or something)?

Abolition, and many other cultural crusades, came about over generations. Years, decades, of strident speeches and sometimes violent clashes over the two (or more) sides of the issue gradually build up until one side or the other "wins". Be prepared for it NOT to be you. Sometimes, it requires the coincidental (or Fated ? Divinely Inspired ?) coincidence of other factors to give the message special meaning and "push it over the top".

How can I grow the church without street corner prostelytizing?

Breed them in a hutch like rabbits ?

Seriously, missionaries are the key to growth. You pretty much can't grow quickly without it. You *could* grow slowly, over generations, by each family passing their beliefs on to their children. However, for any serious growth in the short term, you have to "sell" people on the idea.

And in the event that I do need to motivate the faithful for an upcoming battle but not for direct combat...

How do I prepare them for the coming of a great evil (probably extraplanar)?
Should I begin training some for medicinal/triage duties?

Not every suggestion needs to work or be viable for this one game. I'm looking for how apply personal charisma & reputation to large groups in a fantasy setting that's not just die & mechanics based.

Well, applying charisma and reputation large groups generally *is* some variety of dice and mechanics mechanism. There is very little alternative.

I would suggest you check out Empire, from AEG; A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe, from Expeditious Retreat press; and the 3E Birthright rules at Birthright.net. All three offer gaming-related approaches to governing people. For flavor and an understanding of how the different types of influences interact, A Magical Medieval Society is your best bet (especially the Chapters on Manors and On Those Why Pray).