Of fun and games; was "WoW is not an RPG"

[Pale]

I'd say that WoW is a MMO based on "Pen and Paper" RPGs. I think that sums it up neatly.

That said, I wish that they weren't trying to turn D&D into an MMO with fourth edition. I enjoy both types of play. And while I do enjoy chocolate in my peanut butter (mighty tasty) I don't like the idea of computers being so heavily involved in my tabletop RPG experience.

It's fine for prep work and reference, but I don't want to play remotely or have to have a subscription to have up-to-date rules tweaks.

Now I'm getting all nostalgiac about the "olden days" where house rules that fixed borked system mechanics changed from game to game and were as much a part of the experience of play as the game itself. "I love Dave's D&D, but Bob's is way too deadly."

 

[Fifth Element]

It does matter that games are of different kinds when you are designing new ones. Inevitably games borrow from each (this is a good thing). But the way one borrows from a similar game is differnt from borrowing from something completly differnt. When done carefully this leads to cool new things (Duex Ex is like an RPG/FPS hybrid for example). However, if done accidentally or carelessly you can end up with something that no longer has what you originally wanted in it.

That's pretty tortured logic, I think. It really doesn't matter where an idea comes from as long as it's a good idea and works for the particular game you're working on. You've agreed that there's nothing inherently important about whether a game is an "RPG" or not; so what could it matter whether taking too many ideas from other sources could produce something you didn't intend (presumably, you mean a "non-RPG")?

 

[Fifth Element]

That said, I wish that they weren't trying to turn D&D into an MMO with fourth edition. I enjoy both types of play. And while I do enjoy chocolate in my peanut butter (mighty tasty) I don't like the idea of computers being so heavily involved in my tabletop RPG experience.

They're not trying to turn D&D into a MMO. Period.

They're enabling greater computer use in D&D. They're not forcing it. You will still be able to play the game with P&P. Period.

 

[Pale]

They're not trying to turn D&D into a MMO. Period.

They're enabling greater computer use in D&D. They're not forcing it. You will still be able to play the game with P&P. Period.

Really? I could have sworn that everything I've seen requires you to have an D&Di account and a computer at the table. Right down to the teaser that makes fun of THAC0 and grappling.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Really? I could have sworn that everything I've seen requires you to have an D&Di account and a computer at the table. Right down to the teaser that makes fun of THAC0 and grappling.

Nope. It's three books (core). Same as it ever was.

Digital = optional. Same as it ever was (since RPers hit teh intarweb).

 

[Rangoric]

I play a lot of WOW, but wouldn't call it a RPG. RP servers are only about 15-20% of the overall population, and even on them, you find probably 50% of folks don't RP. To the vast majority, the game seems to be more of a numeric exercise.

Same as D&D cool!

 

[Hjorimir]

Again, you can make substantive choices in WoW that aren't suboptimal play for the sake of RP. The choice between Scryer and Aldor, the choice between Steamwheedle and pirate, these are all real choices that shape a character. And that's to say nothing of all the choices one can make in customizing a character

The arguments about WoW not being an RPG really sound like they're being made from a position of unfamiliarity with the game. (And a 10 day free pass does not constitute real familiarity.)

Funny. I played WoW for months. My rogue is 70th level (griffon and all). I just loved how I took the time to max out my Wildhammer faction before the expansion hit only to find out that the other Wildhammer dwarves didn't respect that faction. Yeah, that's a RPG alright.

Customizing an avatar, choosing paths for quests are fine and dandy, but they don't involve role-playing.

 

[Gentlegamer]

At the present level of sophistication, no game, other than those with a human game master, is or can be a role-playing game.

 

[Rangoric]

At the present level of sophistication, no game, other than those with a human game master, is or can be a role-playing game.

So you NEED a GM? So if you play D&D Solo its not a ROle-Playing Game?

Awesome D&D isn't a role-playing game.

 

[Greatwyrm]

If they want to make the best game possible Wizards of the Coast shouldn't be looking at Blizzard's revenue and asking "how can we be more like those MMORPGs". Likewise, Blizzard should not be trying to graft a true persistent world like Living Greyhawk onto the abstract game-world of Azeroth that millions visit every day. Instead the question is simple: how can we take these games that we love and play to their strengths, making them better, more fun, and more popular in the process?

I know you put a lot of work into your thoughts, Elfan, but I think this chunk is really the core of what is going on. It's easy to assume at first that the changes in 4e (that we know of) are mostly profit based. Sure, everybody wants to make money. But that shouldn't get in the way of what could be real and good changes to make D&D more enjoyable for everyone.

There are a lot of lessons we can learn from MMOs that can now be applied to D&D. Fast, easy character generation. The ability to play with your friends from all corners of the globe. Getting some new skill or ability, even if small, at each level. The ability to rebuild your character if you don't like the choices you've made. "Cooldown" based magic. Content that is continuously refined and expanded. All of these things are improvements, at least to me, which they're talking about taking advantage of.

And really, the only thing that's MMO-pricing-based is DNDinsider. But take a look at what you get for what we expect to be $10 per month. Content similar to a subscription to both Dragon and Dungeon and all the online tools (character generator, DM assistant, battlemap and minis, voice chat). If I remember correctly, buying Dragon and Dungeon at the newsstand would have been more than $10 per month. Further, all that is completely optional. If you (the general you, not Elfan specifically) use rptools, OpenRPG, ScreenMonkey, or any of the other competing products, nobody is forcing you to change.

Also, why shouldn't an MMO like WoW have persistent, world-affecting storylines? The events that I've played through, specifically opening the gates of Ahn-Qiraj and the Scourge invasion, were both pretty cool. Everybody had their small part to play in the big struggle and was rewarded for it.

In the end, if taking ideas from other innovators makes your product better, why not do it?