Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
Except that point does not take into account that you can attack one enemy, move, then bonus action shield master shove another enemy.

Fair enough, I wasn't the one trying to advocate that the RAW means you can shove any time you like because that's what makes sense in all narratives. You could also explain this as the momentum from making your attack(s) is harnessed by an expert shield bearer into the shove, or something similar. There are lots of things that would break down if we started applying "but if I can describe my character doing it in a combat round, why don't the rules let me?" such as taking two bonus actions on your turn instead of an action and a bonus action (assuming you have one to take) and so on.

Hriston · Mar 8, 2019

Maxperson said:
I'm not sure what the point of showing me that rule was. I stated the rules don't allow you to defer the determination of what your action is. Showing me a rule that says you can move before or after the action as determined at the time you take it isn't even remotely close.

Well, no. The determination is whether you take the Attack action on your turn or not. You said the rules don't allow me to wait until the action is taken (or not taken) to make that determination. I posted that rule to show that the rules allow you to take your action at a time during your turn of your choosing. No matter when during your turn you take the Attack action, you've still taken the Attack action on your turn.

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

I saw a really interesting tweet in the thread discussing the stat block change from Ed Greenwood:

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1099179445997527040

"And we did that purely to save wordcount! We got somewhere between a quarter to a third more lore into the same pages by doing that. (The same reason I cam up with "hin" for halflings...see how many letters it saves, each time?)"

This touches on something I had brought up a couple hundred posts ago about the use of "if" instead of "after" or "when" (or even more verbose language) in the rules, and that the editors have to be very economical about their use of the language to make sure the book fits into the page budget and they have enough room for the art they want to include and so on. So, while it would be great if there were several paragraphs explaining the Shield Master bonus action shove, including the designer's intent, the exact timing restrictions, why Sanctuary has nothing to do with it and so on, there's just not enough room in the book to do all of that. It's sort of unfortunate that this economical use of the language leads people to read or infer things that simply aren't in the rules text, but that's why they have things like the Sage Advice Compendium to address common rules questions or issues. They simply don't have room in the book to expand on all of these rules with an errata for future printings.

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Or adopt the action comes first and then the attacks/effect... that's a Grand Unified Theory that makes everything in the game function as it should.

Please cite the text in the PHB that explains how the attacks are separate from the Attack action. I don't see any language that supports the action and the attacks being separate:

Attack
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.

With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.

Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.

There is no mention of duration or expiration of the effect, like there is with the Disengage ("... for the rest of the turn") or Dodge ("Until the start of your next turn, ...") actions.

Maxperson · Mar 8, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
Except that point does not take into account that you can attack one enemy, move, then bonus action shield master shove another enemy.

There's nothing that prevents the fiction from being that the sword swing caused the other enemy to move away off balance, allowing you to shield push as the bonus action.

Maxperson · Mar 8, 2019

Hriston said:
Well, no. The determination is whether you take the Attack action on your turn or not. You said the rules don't allow me to wait until the action is taken (or not taken) to make that determination. I posted that rule to show that the rules allow you to take your action at a time during your turn of your choosing. No matter when during your turn you take the Attack action, you've still taken the Attack action on your turn.

The rule you quoted does not say what you wish it said.

During your turn there are two states of actionhood.

1. You have not taken your action this turn.

2. You have taken your action this turn.

If you wait until 2/3 of your turn is done before taking your action, up until that moment, you are in state 1. You have not taken your action this turn. At that moment when you take your Attack action, the state your character is in switches from "Has not taken the Attack action this turn." to "Has taken the Attack action this turn," and remains that way for the last 1/3 of the turn, allowing you to use your Shield Master bonus action.

The rule allowing you to move before and after your action does not change that fact.

Swarmkeeper · Mar 8, 2019

Maxperson said:
There's nothing that prevents the fiction from being that the sword swing caused the other enemy to move away off balance, allowing you to shield push as the bonus action.

Yes, but do you think the other enemy, 25 feet away from you, would really be put off balance by your sword swing? I mean, anything is possible in "the fiction", but my point is you don't really need any justification for why the shove works to knock a creature prone regardless of its timing. It's just Strength v Strength (or Dex). I mean, when you think of it that way, a shove can work if you open your attack with it - but some folks just don't seem to like that in their "fiction" if it is labeled "bonus action" instead of "action".

Anyway, I didn't come here to go around and around on the beat-down carousel of dead horses - really I just wanted to help get this thread to 1K posts!

Yardiff · Mar 8, 2019

Asgorath said:
This is a brilliant point. If you want to shove a target who is in a defensive stance ready for your attack, then it takes part or all of your full Attack action because it's harder to do. Once you've made your attack(s), the target could be off-balance enough that the extra juice from the Shield Master feat allows you to slip in a well-timed shove to knock them off their feet.

Maybe its just me but this sounds backward.

What makes more since to me is that you shield bash, knocking back or down your opponent, and opening them up for your weapon attacks.

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

Asgorath said:
Please cite the text in the PHB that explains how the attacks are separate from the Attack action. I don't see any language that supports the action and the attacks being separate:

We used our human ability to reason to establish that.

There is no mention of duration or expiration of the effect, like there is with the Disengage ("... for the rest of the turn") or Dodge ("Until the start of your next turn, ...") actions.

Doesn't matter. 1) Disengage establishes the general case that some actions come before their effects. 2) Sanctuary provides the specific case that the attack action comes before the attack. 3) There is no weird effects caused to other rules because of this interpretation. 4) There are very weird effects caused by other rules with the attack action doesn't happen till the attack ruling.

In short, I have all this evidence that the attack action comes before the attacks. You have there's no rule saying whether the attack action comes before the attack or not. Do you have any other evidence than that?

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

Yardiff said:
Maybe its just me but this sounds backward.

What makes more since to me is that you shield bash, knocking back or down your opponent, and opening them up for your weapon attacks.

Sure, and if this was the intent, then the feat would make no reference to the Attack action. It would simply say "you can take a bonus action to shove someone with your shield" or words to that effect. That would be a bonus action with no timing requirement/restriction, and thus you'd be free to do that bonus action any time you like. Given the fact that the feat does not use this wording, then it's clear that this is not how the feat is supposed to work.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath

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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)

Asgorath

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Asgorath

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Maxperson

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Maxperson

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Swarmkeeper

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Yardiff

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FrogReaver

The most respectful and polite poster ever

Asgorath

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