Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

Asgorath said:
Sure, and if this was the intent, then the feat would make no reference to the Attack action. It would simply say "you can take a bonus action to shove someone with your shield" or words to that effect. That would be a bonus action with no timing requirement/restriction, and thus you'd be free to do that bonus action any time you like. Given the fact that the feat does not use this wording, then it's clear that this is not how the feat is supposed to work.

That would allow it to be used with the cast a spell action. So the attack action mention is required in the feat.

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
We used our human ability to reason to establish that.

Doesn't matter. 1) Disengage establishes the general case that some actions come before their effects. 2) Sanctuary provides the specific case that the attack action comes before the attack. 3) There is no weird effects caused to other rules because of this interpretation. 4) There are very weird effects caused by other rules with the attack action doesn't happen till the attack ruling.

In short, I have all this evidence that the attack action comes before the attacks. You have there's no rule saying whether the attack action comes before the attack or not. Do you have any other evidence than that?

Please show the relevant sections in the PHB to back up this "evidence". You are reading things that simply aren't in the text of the rules, as far as I can tell. My evidence is simple: the words in the PHB say that the Attack action is making your attack(s). There is no mention of the duration of an action, because this is not a concept the game uses. If there are words in the PHB that disproves my point, please quote them.

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

Asgorath said:
Please show the relevant sections in the PHB to back up this "evidence". You are reading things that simply aren't in the text of the rules, as far as I can tell. My evidence is simple: the words in the PHB say that the Attack action is making your attack(s). There is no mention of the duration of an action, because this is not a concept the game uses. If there are words in the PHB that disproves my point, please quote them.

I can ask the same of you. What page details the attack action comes at the same time as the attack and not before it? The rules are silent on whether the action is taken at the same time or before the attacks.

But more importantly, what I've provided lots of evidence for why I think it comes before. What evidence do you have for why it comes at the same time?

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
That would allow it to be used with the cast a spell action. So the attack action mention is required in the feat.

So, what's wrong with that? If the designers wanted you to be able to shove any time you like, why does it need to be tied to the Attack action at all? I'm not following why this means the wording of the feat allows you to bonus action shove then attack.

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I can ask the same of you. What page details the attack action comes at the same time as the attack and not before it? The rules are silent on whether the action is taken at the same time or before the attacks.

But more importantly, what I've provided lots of evidence for why I think it comes before. What evidence do you have for why it comes at the same time?

Please explain which words in this rule say that the action is separate from the attacks, or that you can take or declare the action separately from the attacks:

Attack
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.

With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.

Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.

My evidence is simple: the words in the PHB say that the Attack action is making an attack. It's right there, I've even bolded it for you.

If the action system was based on you declaring or taking actions ahead of doing the thing the action lets you do, surely the PHB would have a section that talks about how that works?

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

Asgorath said:
So, what's wrong with that? If the designers wanted you to be able to shove any time you like, why does it need to be tied to the Attack action at all? I'm not following why this means the wording of the feat allows you to bonus action shove then attack.

Because that’s not when they wanted to allow it.

Asgorath · Mar 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Because that’s not when they wanted to allow it.

Great, so you agree this wasn’t the intent and the shove comes after the Attack action.

epithet · Mar 8, 2019

Asgorath said:
... My evidence is simple: the words in the PHB say that the Attack action is making your attack(s). ...

Actually, the PHB says that with the Attack Action, you make an attack. We can argue about the meaning of the word “with“ but “with x comes y” does not mean that they’re the same thing. If my burger comes with cheese, I expect it on the burger. If my burger comes with fries and a drink, I expect them to be in their own containers. This language could support any conclusion that you wish to reach.

Mistwell · Mar 8, 2019

Over 1000 posts. And people are still basically where they were with post #1 on this topic. Same arguments are being made.

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

Asgorath said:
Great, so you agree this wasn’t the intent and the shove comes after the Attack action.

Yes. My interpretation holds to that belief just as strongly as yours.

What you are attempting to do is say, they could have left off the attack action requirement and then you could have done it anytime. But in my interpretation they can't do the shove anytime. They can't do it if they cast magic missile for example. So them removing any mention of the attack action wouldn't keep things the same as my interpretation. Thus they have to mention the attack action.

Try this: word the feat in such a way that it would allow the shove attack to come before the attacks but only if you took or were going to take the attack action on your turn. After you figure that out then post it and let's see what ya got.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

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