Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson · Mar 2, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Here is an interesting comparison:

Two fighters. "Shield Master" Sam is a sword and board with Shield Master. "Two-Weapon Fighting" Todd is a Dual-Wielding sword savant (with Two-Weapon Fighting Style). Both are Level 5.

Sam can attack, attack, shove;
Todd can shove, attack, attack.

Sam's breakdown. Attack action (sword) with Extra Attack (sword) and then bonus action to Shove.

Todd's breakdown: Attack action to Shove (as "special melee attack" using one of his attacks from the attack action), Extra attack (sword), and then bonus action (sword) from TWF.

Both have two attacks, both can shove.

However, Todd could never shove last since his bonus action comes after completing his Attack action, and TWF only allows you "to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand." In other words, it has to be a weapon attack, not the "special melee attack" of the shove action.

Does that bother anyone else? One can only shove last, the other can only shove first. Why? It seems a silly distinction to me.

Todd can shove last if he wants. This is the two-weapon fighting rule, "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

The bonus action doesn't have to be used immediately, so assuming Todd has extra attack, he can attack, shove, bonus action attack. Or attack, bonus action attack, shove. Or shove, attack, bonus action attack.

Maxperson · Mar 2, 2019

epithet said:
The feat doesn't require you to "have taken" anything, it just says "if you take." I submit to you that the condition is definitely satisfied if you "are taking" the Attack Action, especially given the fact that after you make your first attack your other option for Actions on that turn are foreclosed. Why can't you disengage after your first attack? Because you only get one Action on your turn, and you took the Attack Action.

Taking is not a synonym of take.

Nothing in the rules can be reasonably interpreted to require you to end your Attack Action before the bonus shove, only to take it. Taking an Action in the context of the 5e rules is not the same as completing, finishing, or ending the action.

I disagree, but that's hardly a surprise at this point I don't think.

DND_Reborn · Mar 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
Todd can shove last if he wants. This is the two-weapon fighting rule, "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

The bonus action doesn't have to be used immediately, so assuming Todd has extra attack, he can attack, shove, bonus action attack. Or attack, bonus action attack, shove. Or shove, attack, bonus action attack.

Actually, if you follow the SA that the triggering condition must be completed (i.e. the Attack action) before Todd can use his bonus action, he cannot shove last. His last act, granted as a bonus action by TWF, is to "attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

True, he could attack, then shove, and then attack since the shove in position one or two is done through an attack granted by the Attack action (and Extra Attack).

Maxperson · Mar 2, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Actually, if you follow the SA that the triggering condition must be completed (i.e. the Attack action) before Todd can use his bonus action, he cannot shove last. His last act, granted as a bonus action by TWF, is to "attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

True, he could attack, then shove, and then attack since the shove in position one or two is done through an attack granted by the Attack action (and Extra Attack).

He doesn't have to complete the action with two-weapon fighting, though. The trigger goes the extra specific beats general step and specifies that you get it after you make an attack. As soon as the first attack ends, the trigger is complete and you gain the bonus action. Shield Master doesn't add this extra more defined trigger, so it waits until all attacks are done.

epithet · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
If you take the attack action on your turn, you can do X. In that context take can equally mean complete or start the process of taking.

If you take the ethical hacking course you will be learning from a great professor.
VS.
If you take the ethical hacking course you will gain some valuable real world counter hacking knowledge.

In the first statement take assumes you are in the process of taking the course. In the 2nd take assumes you have completed the course.

There is no doubt that you can find any number of real-world examples that offer a context in which "take" means something different, but in the context of a hyper-literal analysis of the rules of D&D, to take an Action on your turn is an abstract thing that has certain benefits and costs. If the costs apply, then so too should the benefits, right?

In this case the most obvious cost of an action is the opportunity cost of taking different Action. If you take the Dodge Action, you can't take the Disengage Action. Once you have made a single weapon attack as part of the Attack Action, you have incurred the opportunity cost and cannot take any other Action, so in the that sense you have taken the Attack Action, even if you have not finished making all of the attacks granted by your Extra Attack feature. Nothing in the rules requires you to complete these extra attacks before the Shield Master shove, because the feat doesn't say "complete" or "finish" or "view clearly in the rear-view mirror." It says only "if you take," and once you have incurred the opportunity cost and can't take another action, you cannot be said to have "not taken" the Attack Action.

We're talking about a binary here, aren't we? "If you take the Attack Action on your turn" is, according to Max and Asgorath and many other here in this thread, a knowable binary true-or-false trigger at any give discrete moment during your turn. Following that logic, if "has taken an Action in combat" is true in the sense that you cannot take another Action on your turn, and your Action on that turn is the Attack Action, then "If you take the Attack Action on your turn" must return a value of "true" and you can choose when to take a bonus action (shove) during your turn at any point thereafter, including before your Extra Attack(s).

epithet · Mar 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
He doesn't have to complete the action with two-weapon fighting, though. The trigger goes the extra specific beats general step and specifies that you get it after you make an attack. As soon as the first attack ends, the trigger is complete and you gain the bonus action. Shield Master doesn't add this extra more defined trigger, so it waits until all attacks are done.

Two Weapon Fighting adds the "melee weapon attack" as an additional condition, so it has the condition of the Shield Master shove plus the light weapon attack condition.

epithet · Mar 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
He doesn't have to complete the action with two-weapon fighting, though. The trigger goes the extra specific beats general step and specifies that you get it after you make an attack. As soon as the first attack ends, the trigger is complete and you gain the bonus action. Shield Master doesn't add this extra more defined trigger, so it waits until all attacks are done.

Actually, your hyper-literal interpretation of the Rules as Written should, to be consistent, mean that the two-weapon fighting bonus action attack is almost impossible without an action surge or haste effect.

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand," when parsed and interpreted with your usual rigorous and unforgiving analysis of syntax, would mean that a character would have to take the Attack Action, complete the Attack Action including any Extra Attacks for the turn, and then make an additional attack with a light melee weapon before triggering the bonus action attack.

No?

DND_Reborn · Mar 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
He doesn't have to complete the action with two-weapon fighting, though. The trigger goes the extra specific beats general step and specifies that you get it after you make an attack. As soon as the first attack ends, the trigger is complete and you gain the bonus action. Shield Master doesn't add this extra more defined trigger, so it waits until all attacks are done.

Just so you know, I agree with you. My point was that using the SA response about Shield Master and further about how the completing Attack actions (including Extra Attack) before bonus actions are done was what prompted this scenario.

But think about what this means?

Sam took a FEAT (a valuable commodity, I think we can agree!) for Shield Master, as where Todd could be any one wielding two weapons with the Extra attack feature (he doesn't need Two-Weapon Fighting Style or Dual Wielder...).

If you think a single attack from TWF triggers the bonus action to be available and don't believe all the attacks granted by the attack action need be resolved before another action is taken (many argue they have to be), then Todd can:

Shove (attack), Sword (attack), Dagger (bonus TWF)
Sword (attack), Shove (attack), Dagger (bonus TWF)
Sword (attack), Dagger (bonus TWF), Shove (attack)

I'm fine with that personally. But in that light I think it is ridiculous that the ability granted by Shield Master can only be done by Sam after both attacks.

Finally, consider a Fighter like Sam but without Shield Master. Using the Shield as an improvised weapon (you would need Dual Wielder for this as the Shield is not a Light weapon) and TWF:

Shove (attack), Sword (attack), Shield punch (bonus TWF)
Sword (attack), Shove (attack), Shield punch (bonus TWF)
Sword (attack), Shield punch (bonsu TWF), Shove (attack)

So a Fighter with Dual Wielder feat is more versatile in how he employs a shield in combat towards shoving a target than a Fighter who has Shield Master... Again, I think that isn't quite right. Oh, well...

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Just so we're clear: I am not arguing about the SA ruling. I understand from SA specifies the Shove can only come "after" the Attack action. Not after an attack, but the Attack action. I simply don't agree with that. I do agree that at least ONE attack of the Attack action must be rolled before the Shove can be attempted.

The SA logic, however, does leave other things open to interpretation as well. Take TWF for instance, do you play you can only take the Bonus action to attack after resolving all other attacks granted by the Attack action? Because its wording is the same line as the Shield Master feat....

No it's not?

Shield Master: "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield."

Two-Weapon Fighting: "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."

Critical difference in bold. TWF explicitly says the bonus action is granted after making a single weapon attack, Shield Master does not. Thus, Shield Master's trigger is the entire Attack action.

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

epithet said:
Even if you accept that an Action occupies the position of a discrete point in time during your turn (rather than simply taking place "on your turn" generally,) there is nothing other than Crawford's dubious recent additions to his Sage Advice that would equate "take" with "finish." Even if you have the Extra Attack feature, you have absolutely and definitively taken the Attack Action once you have made a single melee or ranged weapon attack. For one thing, making your extra attack is optional, and perhaps more importantly you cannot (unless you use an Action Surge, Cunning Action, or are effected by a spell like haste,) take a different action on that turn.

Is there anything you can point to other than the recent statements by Jeremy Crawford that would suggest that "take the Attack Action" necessarily requires completing any and all attacks which it allows? Because as far as I can tell, that is a new and preposterous interpretation that Jeremy produced from his backside only recently, and one which does not bear up under scrutiny. I can see a reasonable interpretation of the rules that requires making an attack before allowing the bonus action shove. I don't share that interpretation, but I certainly acknowledge that it is one that a reasonable and thoughtful person might reach. I cannot agree that interpreting the rule to require a Shield Master to complete all attacks granted by the Attack Action before considering the bonus shove to have been triggered is reasonable.

If this is true, why is the wording of TWF fighting different than Shield Master? TWF is triggered by making an attack with a light weapon, and thus can come between attacks in the Attack action. If Shield Master said "If you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with a weapon you hold in one hand, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield" then I'd agree with your interpretation of the trigger.

Edit: Sorry, didn't realize how far behind I was. To be fair, I also think it's perfectly reasonable to allow attack-shove-attack, because at that point you have at least committed yourself to the Attack action. The official ruling doesn't talk about Extra Attack, but once you've made the first attack it's not like you can suddenly switch to a different action.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

epithet

Explorer

epithet

Explorer

epithet

Explorer

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Asgorath

Explorer

Asgorath

Explorer

Similar Threads

Related Articles