Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

Let me try explaining this in a slightly different way. I've been talking about your turn as an ordered list of discrete elements. However, the part I probably should've emphasized more is that you play and resolve each element one at a time, i.e. you don't declare the full list at the start of your turn and then work through it (you can certainly declare what your intent or plan for your turn is in advance, but it has no in-game meaning). This makes questions like "am I done with my Attack action" fairly trivial to answer as you go.

1) Move. You process your movement as a discrete element. You and your DM agree where your character is now positioned.

2) Attack. You make one or more attacks against one or more targets in range. You roll to hit, DM tells you if you hit, and you roll damage if needed.

3) Move. Turns out you killed the target(s), so you move over towards some other targets and get into melee range with them.

4) Attack. You still have an attack left from Extra Attack, so you make another attack roll against the new target. DM tells you if you hit, and you roll damage if needed.

5) Move. You still have some movement left and just killed another target, so you move over to a 3rd target in preparation for your next turn.

6) Shield Master shove. At this point, there should be zero confusion about the fact your Attack action is complete, and thus the Shield Master bonus action has been triggered, and you can shove it prone for your Rogue buddy who's already standing next to it.

My underlying point is that each of these is treated as a discrete element that gets resolved independently of everything else. At no stage were you doing two things at once, each element is processed separately. Given that the round lasts roughly 6 seconds, each element has an in-game duration, but the specific duration is not really important. You assemble your turn out of these discrete elements as you go, and each element is adjudicated before moving onto the next one.

So, the question might be, what happens if you really want to shove someone and still have attacks left from Extra Attack? You have two choices:

1) Use one of your attacks to shove them, using the normal shoving rules.
2) Your Attack action is done and you shove them with your bonus action.

Given that (2) basically means you lose attacks from Extra Attack, it doesn't make much sense to use your bonus action to shove while you still have attacks from Extra Attack left, right?

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Because for the bonus action for Shield Master their is no specified timing, only the condition that you take the attack action. My interpretation is you can shove anytime after 2 since you have used your attack action. Flurry of blows is a different example because it specifies immediately after you take the attack action. Does that mean it has to be complete if you have Extra Attack? Maybe, maybe not, that is up to the table's interpretation.

Again, that's not how bonus action timing works. Shield Master absolutely has a trigger (the Attack action) which must be completed before you even have the bonus action to take. Flurry of Blows is addressed in the Sage Advice video, for reference.

Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.

In this case, the discrete element of "Flurry of Blows" must be directly after the final Attack action element. Thus: move, attack (1/2), move, attack (2/2), Flurry of Blows, move is legal. The intent is that you cannot move before using Flurry of Blows, it must immediately follow your final attack from Extra Attack. Shield Master does not have this restriction, allowing you to move in between your final attack and the bonus action shove.

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/910564240888520704

"Flurry of Blows happens after the Attack action, not after attacks within that action."

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/632225244846002177

"That's correct." in response to "so FoB must be after the Attack action is fully resolved, while Unarmed Strike acts like any other bonus action then?".

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/910560028070879232

"Flurry of Blows can be used right after you take the Attack action, no matter what you did with that action."

Edit: And as we've discussed in the past, here's where Shield Master shove first breaks down.

1) Move. "I move over to that monster", easy enough.

2) Shield Master shove. "I use my bonus action from Shield Master to shove that monster prone", you succeed on the roll. Cool.

2a) Someone uses a reaction to cast Hold Person on you, and you fail your saving throw, and you're now incapacitated and your turn is over.

You never took the Attack action on your turn, and thus you never had the bonus action from Shield Master, and so your turn is not valid.

Maxperson · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
When is not an indicator that an action and it's effects last together in tandem.

If taking an action is instantaneous and then everything after is effect, then you have literally taken no action at all. In order to take an action, you have to act. That's what action means. The effect of taking the attack action is not getting an attack. The attack and in applicable cases extra attack are the action, and the miss or hit with all that goes with those is the effect. When you take the Cast a Spell action, the effect is not casting the spell. That's the action. The effect is what comes once the spell is cast. When you take the disengage action, movement is not the effect. Movement is the action. The only effect is that you do not provoke opportunity attacks. With Dash the action and the effect are one and the same. You move up to 30 extra feet.

Maxperson · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Of course it's mechanically valid to the game. Try to play the game without declaring the disengage action and see how far you get.

The declaration has no mechanical validity. It does not have mechanics tied to it in any way. Only the act of disengaging has mechanical validity. I can disengage by declaring disengage, or by declaring I like green eggs and ham, then informing the DM that my movement provokes no opportunity attacks this round. Either way only the act of disengaging got me any mechanical benefit.

In fact. I'm going to to that next time I play. I'm going to tell the DM, "Green eggs and ham." and then say that my attacks do not provoke as I move. He's going to know that I am using disengage despite not having declared that I am disengaging, I guarantee it.

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
The declaration has no mechanical validity. It does not have mechanics tied to it in any way. Only the act of disengaging has mechanical validity. I can disengage by declaring disengage, or by declaring I like green eggs and ham, then informing the DM that my movement provokes no opportunity attacks this round. Either way only the act of disengaging got me any mechanical benefit.

In fact. I'm going to to that next time I play. I'm going to tell the DM, "Green eggs and ham." and then say that my attacks do not provoke as I move. He's going to know that I am using disengage despite not having declared that I am disengaging, I guarantee it.

That would be an implicit declaration, just not an explicit one. It's still a declaration either way.

Maxperson · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
That would be an implicit declaration, just not an explicit one. It's still a declaration either way.

It's only a declaration of green eggs and ham. Nothing more. Nothing less. For that matter, I don't have to declare anything at all. I can just inform the DM of what effects I am under with no declaration and let him figure out what action is being taken. Declarations are simply not necessary for game mechanics.

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
It's only a declaration of green eggs and ham. Nothing more. Nothing less. For that matter, I don't have to declare anything at all. I can just inform the DM of what effects I am under with no declaration and let him figure out what action is being taken. Declarations are simply not necessary for game mechanics.

No, you declared "then say that my attacks do not provoke as I move". That is an implicit declaration of the disengage action.

DND_Reborn · Mar 2, 2019

Asgorath said:
Let me try explaining this in a slightly different way. I've been talking about your turn as an ordered list of discrete elements. However, the part I probably should've emphasized more is that you play and resolve each element one at a time, i.e. you don't declare the full list at the start of your turn and then work through it (you can certainly declare what your intent or plan for your turn is in advance, but it has no in-game meaning). This makes questions like "am I done with my Attack action" fairly trivial to answer as you go.

Just so we're clear: I am not arguing about the SA ruling. I understand from SA specifies the Shove can only come "after" the Attack action. Not after an attack, but the Attack action. I simply don't agree with that. I do agree that at least ONE attack of the Attack action must be rolled before the Shove can be attempted.

The SA logic, however, does leave other things open to interpretation as well. Take TWF for instance, do you play you can only take the Bonus action to attack after resolving all other attacks granted by the Attack action? Because its wording is the same line as the Shield Master feat....

Maxperson · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
No, you declared "then say that my attacks do not provoke as I move". That is an implicit declaration of the disengage action.

Information is not a declaration. Informing the DM of the effect is not the same as declaring that I am going to do it. It just facilitates game play to give the DM a bit of INFORMAL advanced warning.

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
Information is not a declaration. Informing the DM of the effect is not the same as declaring that I am going to do it. It just facilitates game play to give the DM a bit of INFORMAL advanced warning.

The method you provide that information is a declaration. Seriously, you're now arguing that saying "my movement doesn't provoke OA's" is not a declaration? I'm done. You take the most outlandish positions on the most basic concepts. We are never going to be able to talk about anything because of that. I'm sorry I don't have the option to just ignore you. If I did I would.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath

Explorer

Asgorath

Explorer

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

FrogReaver

The most respectful and polite poster ever

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

FrogReaver

The most respectful and polite poster ever

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

FrogReaver

The most respectful and polite poster ever

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