Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[Dandu]

Uh, no. The evading the summoned creatures for several rounds before coming back to finish the job is a different resolution than the situation where the summoned creatures simply die incidentally, without any extra effort, while the ogre mage is severely damaging the rest of the party. No cone of cold is required to simply survive eight rounds of being charged by a dire bat, particularly with a 50% miss chance should the ogre mage happen to continue to be invisible.

You do realize that while the bat is pointing out which square the Ogre Mage is in, the party is unlikely to be standing around ineffectively, right?

Chances are, once they've been attacked by/notice the presence of the Ogre Mage and have summoned a monster, they are likely to be doing something other than munching on popcorn and watching the bat go at it.

 

[pawsplay]

You do realize that while the bat is pointing out which square the Ogre Mage is in, the party is unlikely to be standing around ineffectively, right?

Chances are, once they've been attacked by/notice the presence of the Ogre Mage and have summoned a monster, they are likely to be doing something other than munching on popcorn and watching the bat go at it.

Gosh, Dandu, I never thought of that. But now that you have helpfully brough this to my attention, I have to ask, what is your point?

See below, please. ~ PCat

 

[Dandu]

Gosh, Dandu, I never thought of that.

Well you sure showed me with that incisive display of wit. I am humbled.

But now that you have helpfully brough this to my attention, I have to ask, what is your point?

That you mention that one spell can't solve once and for all the problem... without taking into account how it helps the situation?

You're doing something very useful when you summon the dire bat; you are showing everyone where the Ogre Mage is. This is a good thing.

 

[Uder]

Some other CR 8 creatures - athach, behir, efreeti, erinyes, stone giant, mind flayer, tyrannosaurus rex. I think in terms of badassery they outclass the ogre mage on many levels. Cone of cold is great but he's not swallowing anyone whole or stunning you and ripping out your brains.

Some CR 6 beasties - annis hag, chain devil, babau demon, ettin, gauth beholder, will -o'-wisp. These seem more on par with the ogre mage. I'm comfortable with the ogre mage in this kind of company.

CR 7 - aboleth (the ogre mage is more powerful than an aboleth? really?), bulette, chaos beast, chimera, chuul, drider, hill giant, flesh golem, succubus. These all seem to be tougher than the ogre mage.

As always, circumstances of environment may add to or detract from overall badassery.

All of that makes sense. The Ogre Mage needs a couple more hit dice and another damage-dealing ranged power or two (or another use of Cone of Cold) to hang with the CR8 critters - and even some of the CR7 ones. Once you buff him up though, he becomes more isolated from the niche that Mearls mentions - as a boss or ally of standard ogres. He also becomes a bit too hard for 4th-5th level groups to deal with as a boss monster.

I'm not comfortable with it at CR6 without implementing some of the changes Mearls mentions, just because that's boss monster territory for 2-4th level characters, and the ogre mage is way too tough for parties of that level. Likewise, I'm not comfortable with dropping all of its abilities and using the CR5 version because I don't subscribe to the 5-round-lifespan vanilla flavoring groupthink that D&D R&D fell into while they were simultaneously designing 4th edition and still flogging 3rd.

I've never felt Mind Flayers were quite right for CR8 either - but a lot of monsters that used to require fodder to do well in previous editions feel that way in 3e regardless of CR anyway.

 

[Runestar]

I've never felt Mind Flayers were quite right for CR8 either - but a lot of monsters that used to require fodder to do well in previous editions feel that way in 3e regardless of CR anyway.

They are fairly swingy - combat can go either direction depending on how its mindblast goes (and it can spam to its heart's content), and there are few counters to it at this lv. Cr8 seems about right.

MM5 has the mindflayer cleric4, which for +2cr, gives it a massive boost in AC and hp, as well as some actual melee capability.

As for the ogre mage, what do you think of replacing its SLAs with warlock invocations? There are invocations for at-will invis and darkness, and it gets a 4d6 eldritch blast instead of having to swing with a crummy greatsword.

 

[Piratecat]

Gentlemen. Please read over your last few posts and imagine how you'd react if you saw someone else typing that snippily. It's fine to disagree with someone; just don't make it personal, and don't be a jerk about it.

PM me if this is in any way unclear.

 

[Uder]

As for the ogre mage, what do you think of replacing its SLAs with warlock invocations? There are invocations for at-will invis and darkness, and it gets a 4d6 eldritch blast instead of having to swing with a crummy greatsword.

I don't see any reason to switch invis/darkness, since the evocations work the same as the spells, but adding an eldritch blast (maybe with Hideous Blow?) would make for an interesting encounter.

Edit: Devil's Sight would be fun too.

 

[Runestar]

Hideous blow is a nice idea. That would soup up its melee attack, and give it a viable ranged attack (touch compensates for its crummy bab).

 

[pawsplay]

Hideous blow is never the answer.

 

[Runestar]

Advance the ogre mage to 8HD, max out ranks in concentration and give him combat casting to ensure he never fails his check to cast defensively.