Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[Great Guru]

Glitterdust's area is large enough that if we're talking a typical dungeon room or corridor it won't be hard to use it effectively.

My group - in a dungeon setting - would Glitterdust and Web the crap out of it. If your Glitterduster is a sorcerer he's got the slots to spare.

If your party includes a warlock with the right invocations - See the Unseen and Fell Flight - it goes down hill for the ogre mage in a big hurry.

 

[coyote6]

I used one of these guys, and IME Mearls was just way off. These guys are tough. The way it played out with my group, you had an invisible guy with a glaive attacking.

As soon as the ogre mage swings that glaive at someone, he's no longer invisible (it's just invisibility, not the greater version). The whole party then gets a round of actions to attack him; if glitterdust is available, they can cast it, and the ogre mage never gets to be invisible again; same if the cleric has invisibility purge.

In any case, the ogre mage then has to use his standard action to turn invisible again; most likely, he's threatened by one or two people (assuming a regular dungeon where he can't just hover out of reach), so he has to cast defensively or soak up AoOs (and possibly have the invisibility interrupted). Ogre mage's have a 25% chance of blowing the concentration check, which would mean that round was basically wasted; might want to fly away (provoking AoOs).

Now he's (maybe) invisible; next round he can get a pair of attacks while invisible. Then rinse and repeat.

Note that this ogre mage differs in a key way from the standard MM version: he's got a glaive, giving him a really long reach. Long reach + flight can be brutal. If the ceiling is tall enough, that right there would be vicious -- hover 20 ft off the ground, far out of reach of most everyone (you'd need to be flying, spider climbing, levitating, or enlarged w/a reach weapon), hacking away. Invisibility & cone of cold would just be the cherries on top of that Oh God Oh God He's Killing Us sundae (turn invisible & fly to a distant corner & wait to regenerate, then move in and attack again).

 

[Alzrius]

According to v.6.1 of Craig Cochrane's Challenging Challenge Ratings system - which deconstructs CR at a truly minute level - the ogre mage is CR 4.

 

[jedavis]

I distinctly recall a 3.0 Rog3/Wiz 5 and Fighter 6/Ranger 1 once having their asses handed to them by an Ogre Mage indoors without the use of invisibility or cone of cold. Don't remember the gory details, but I do remember a lot of failed SR penetration rolls and then getting pulped by a huge greatsword (I was playing the Wiz/Rogue).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

According to v.6.1 of Craig Cochrane's Challenging Challenge Ratings system - which deconstructs CR at a truly minute level - the ogre mage is CR 4.

I think Craig's ratings system needs a sanity check. If his system spits out an Ogre Mage as CR 4, something is clearly screwed up in there. Massively.

 

[coyote6]

Yeah, CR 4 seems really low. 4 PCs of 4th level would very likely get wiped out by one cone of cold, and are much less likely to be able to deal with flight and invisibility and regeneration.

Never mind 2nd level PCs -- a CR 4 foe should be a tough, but beatable, opponent for four 2nd level PCs. They'd get murdered.

Perhaps this system redefines CR in some way? (E.g., I think some people have used alternate CR values where CR meant "a tough fight for the PCs" rather than the standard "use 25% of their resources [and the PCs are likely to win".)

 

[pawsplay]

Again, I've actually played this out. With the group I played with, only the last glitterdust even hit the right square. Spot and Listen can be used to pinpoint, but it's not an easy process. Magic missiles cannot be cast on ogre magi who are invisible. By some readings, only a fighter with reach could effectively AoO an ogre mage who tried to grapple, and no one can if the ogre mage is invisible. Glitterdust has a notably short duration--8 rounds at 8th level--and covers a 10 foot radius spread, which, by the way, you hope covers the ogre mage but not your own party.

A well-coordinated attack by an intelligent and prepared party will destroy him, but that's true of most CR 8 creatures encountered solo. A juvenile green dragon has lots of hit points, but it can't turn invisible or regenerate.

 

[Dandu]

Again, I've actually played this out. With the group I played with, only the last glitterdust even hit the right square. Spot and Listen can be used to pinpoint, but it's not an easy process.

Spot is a flat DC 20 to notice an invisible creature (DC 30 if he's holding very still). You can get a spot modifier of 9 ranks+5 (2,500 gp item) for a +14 spot modifier before anything else comes into play.

Listen vs Move Silently to notice the general direction of the sounds an invisible creature makes. Beat the DC by 20 and you can pinpoint it. 9 ranks gives a +9 modifier vs the Orge Mage's move silently modifier of +0.

Between the two, I think the party is likely to notice something's around.

Magic missiles cannot be cast on ogre magi who are invisible.

Magic Missile was a response to Darkness.

By some readings, only a fighter with reach could effectively AoO an ogre mage who tried to grapple

Yes, and fighters with reach weapons are so rare. You still haven't addressed the problem of the fighter having a comperable grapple modifier which makes grappling difficult.

and no one can if the ogre mage is invisible.

You lose invisiblity when you attack someone. Grappling is an attack. You therefore are not invisible when you're grappling someone.

Glitterdust has a notably short duration--8 rounds at 8th level

Fortunately most melee fighters don't need that long to kill it.

--and covers a 10 foot radius spread, which, by the way, you hope covers the ogre mage but not your own party.

Why would the mage ever include party members in the area of Glitterdust in the first place? Surely a man as intelligent as Einstein would know not to do such a thing? When you resort to such petty nit picking to defend your position, could it be a sign that your position is tenuous?

 

[Runestar]

Unless 2 or more PCs are surrounding the ogre mage, you should never end up in a scenario where you have to risk hitting both the mage and your PC with glitterdust simultaneously.

I think Craig's ratings system needs a sanity check. If his system spits out an Ogre Mage as CR 4, something is clearly screwed up in there. Massively.

I think it highlights just what a 1-trick pony the ogre mage is. After it has used its cone of cold, it is really just an ogre with flight, sr and regeneration. Cr4 is probably too low (an ogre is already cr3), but likely not that far off the mark. Maybe cr5-6 max.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd say Ogre Mage is about CR 6. And yes, CR 4 is still way off, even if it's within "just" 2 points. An Ogre Mage can easily TPK a level 4 party. They might beat him, sure (I'm placing it as CR 6, afterall, so it's well within the realm of possible), but there's a very high risk of multiple PC deaths. That is not what I'd call an equivalent level challenge.

I think Ogre Mage should either be stripped of Cone of Cold and made CR 6 or a very strong CR 5. OR, add in several HD and one or two more at will, passive all-day, or per encounter abilties to make them more robust overall, and actually let them earn their CR 8 ranking.

A while back, I wanted to make an Oni variant Ogre Mage using Tome of Battle maneuvers as a per encounter resource instead of spell-likes. I might go back to that sometime.