[Old Debate] Is the caster level of items a prerequisite?

[Olive]

Sorry to bring this up again.

Can anyone help? My player wants to make a lesser metamagic rod, and we can't remember if the caster level of an item is supposed to be a prereq or not. My memory is that the Sage says yes, the other designers say no.

Any help?

 

[TheAuldGrump]

According to Monte Cook they were not prerequesites for 3.0.
According to the DMG they are for 3.5.

The correction to the 3.0 rules never made it into the errata, and so were ignored for 3.5.

I go with a case by case basis, some magic items are powerful items based around a low to mid level spell, for those I can agree with the caster level.

On others, well....

The Auld Grump

 

[S'mon]

Surely in 3.0 the caster level was the minimum level at which the item could operate, and a caster can't create an item that functions at a level higher than his own, therefore the caster level was effectively a prerrequisite? A mistake I made in 3.0 was thinking that the caster level was both necessary & sufficient - in fact some items requiring high level spells can only be created by casters of much higher level than the item's caster level.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think both 3.0 and 3.5 DMG seem to imply that it is a pre-requisite.

The authors have said that it was never meant to be a pre-requisite in any of the two.

Still, it is there. I think maybe there was a minor errata in the first volley of correction, about the wording but it didnt change at all.

 

[dcollins]

The whole drawn out story: www.superdan.net/dndfaq2.html
(Note Appendix at bottom linking to more recent updates.)

In brief:
3.0 books -- yes.
Cook at 3.0 release -- no, doesn't say anything like it.
Reynolds at 3.0 -- no, doesn't say anything like it.
3.5 books -- yes.
Cook at 3.5 release -- yes, but it's a mistake.
Reynolds at 3.5 release -- no, should have been errata'd but wasn't.
Collins at 3.5 release -- no, doesn't say anything like it.

You get the idea. No internally consistent ruling against it has been made to date.

 

[Olive]

Hmmm. So in the case of lesser metamagic rods, what is people's opinion. Too powerful for the straight 'craft rod' feat?

 

[Li Shenron]

Hmmm. So in the case of lesser metamagic rods, what is people's opinion. Too powerful for the straight 'craft rod' feat?

Well, it doesn't seem fair if CL 17 is a prerequisite for both Lesser, "Moderate" and Greater MMRods!

For a mage who crafts the rod for himself I think that the prerequisite (to have the correct MM feat) and the cost, although blatantly cheap, could be enough. What I don't like is when the mage makes a Rod for every spellcaster in the party...

To me it's also unclear what "use-activated" means in the case of a Rod. To hold in hand? To keep on yourself? It doesn't even specify if to activate you need a separate standard action or not an action (both are possible for use-activated items).

edit: the note about Sorcerers seems to imply that using the Rod is not a separate action, so it takes just as long as casting the spell...

 

[melkoriii]

Actually No.

From SRD

Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

Emphasis mine.

Caster lvl is not part of the prerequisistes.

when it mentions lvl it is referring to spell lvl (ie minimum caster lvl for the required spell)

You cant make a item that uses Fireball and make it at caster lvl 3 as you have to be caster lvl 5 to cast Fireball. SO the Minimum caster lvl for such an Item is 5.

 

[3d6]

Actually No.

Emphasis mine.

Caster lvl is not part of the prerequisistes.

when it mentions lvl it is referring to spell lvl (ie minimum caster lvl for the required spell)

You cant make a item that uses Fireball and make it at caster lvl 3 as you have to be caster lvl 5 to cast Fireball. SO the Minimum caster lvl for such an Item is 5.

From the RSRD

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

 

[melkoriii]

From the RSRD
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

This is listed under the entery of "Caster level".

This entery is talking only and spasificly about what lvl an Item is for resisting Despel Magics.
What "the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level" mean here is that, when a player makes a item the CL for dispel magic is the creators Caster lvl at the time of creation.

Dont take this out of context as it does not refer to "Prerequisites" which is lested spasificly below the "Caster Level" entery and spasificaly states that the prerequisites immediately following the CL.

Full quote from SRD 3.5

Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).


Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.
Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).
When two spells at the end of a list are separated by “or,” one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.