D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Ruin Explorer]

Oh, don’t get me wrong - I definitely don’t want to chase anybody away from the game, including grognards. But making the game more welcoming to marginalized people is a higher priority to me than retaining grognards.

Yup. Even from a simple maths perspective I think it has to be given the percentages WotC was showing for grogs vs young people playing D&D today.

 

[Remathilis]

The hope is, that D&D is easier to get into without a long-time player to teach you the ropes now than it was in 2008, and even if 6e radically changes the game and drives all the grognards away, the game will still thrive, as it becomes more accessible and welcoming to a wider new audience.

I’m not confident WotC is ready to make that leap of faith, especially with the sting of the 4e backlash still weighing on the minds of the people steering the ship. But I hope I’m wrong.

A lot of media outlets have tried that gamble and it hasn't always worked out for them. Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, and Doctor Who are just a few of the properties that have tried to increase diversity, sometimes at the cost of keeping its original fanbase happy. Unfortunately, it doesn't always appear that an influx of new fans counterbalances the loss of old ones. That's not to say stupid stuff like "get woke, go broke" or such nonsense, but it does mean you have to honor the past while simultaneously introducing greater diversity. Too much change too quickly shatters the fanbase, something D&D should take great steps to avoid.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Oh, don’t get me wrong - I definitely don’t want to chase anybody away from the game, including grognards. But making the game more welcoming to marginalized people is a higher priority to me than retaining grognards.

As a grognard, I say you won't chase away grognards by making the game more welcoming. Here's the thing, and I apologize for name dropping but I think I need to make the point.

Jennell Jaquays, Pauli Kidd, and Mike Monard are part of the old guard who were there literally at the beginning D&D and now pretty much have nothing to do with the OSR because a lot of bigots have taken over, and people like Venger saying he speaks for the OSR (don't get me started).
Others like Tim Kask, Frank Mentzer, Jean Rabe, Tracy Hickman, and Peter Atkinson are a lot more progressive than anything else in their views, and being more inclusive certainly wouldn't drive them away.
In fact, the only vocally conservative old guard that I know of is Jim Ward, and he's not expressed any hostility towards inclusivity that I'm aware of.

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of names there, but those are the ones I've ever had first hand communication with. Point being, anyone who says being inclusive will drive away grognards isn't a real grognard, because many of the OG are pretty progressive folks. In fact, one of the reasons I started the Chromatic Dungeons project was because it didn't sit well with me that so many who were there at the beginning and helped create this very hobby, were leaving the OSR. And that's just not right.

 

[Charlaquin]

A lot of media outlets have tried that gamble and it hasn't always worked out for them. Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, and Doctor Who are just a few of the properties that have tried to increase diversity, sometimes at the cost of keeping its original fanbase happy. Unfortunately, it doesn't always appear that an influx of new fans counterbalances the loss of old ones. That's not to say stupid stuff like "get woke, go broke" or such nonsense, but it does mean you have to honor the past while simultaneously introducing greater diversity. Too much change too quickly shatters the fanbase, something D&D should take great steps to avoid.

For sure! It’s definitely always a risk.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Essentially WOTC ran from the backlack of 4e and to the old school. However old school D&D was designed to "just be played" you weren't supposed to think about it.

Not touching this thread, but just to clarify here: 4E was rejected by a lot of people purely for the mechanics. It had nothing to do with political, social issues, etc. And it wasn't purely about old school versus new school (it was about people who were playing 3E not transitioning to 4E because the system was too different). And D&D at the time lost nearly half its fans to Paizo (which was a much more progressive company if I remember than WOTC at that time). Fifth edition succeeded because it was able to unite the fan base again rather than divide it (and again, that was all about mechanics as well)

 

[Sacrosanct]

Not touching this thread, but just to clarify here: 4E was rejected by a lot of people purely for the mechanics. It had nothing to do with political, social issues, etc. And it wasn't purely about old school versus new school (it was about people who were playing 3E not transitioning to 4E because the system was too different). And D&D at the time lost nearly half its fans to Paizo (which was a much more progressive company if I remember than WOTC at that time). Fifth edition succeeded because it was able to unite the fan base again rather than divide it (and again, that was all about mechanics as well)

Yep. And I don't know how much I agree with the assertion that "old school wasn't meant to be thinking about it, just play instead." I'd posit you had to do MORE thinking in TSR era, because if you didn't, your characters died all the time. You didn't just look at your character sheet for a power/skill, roll a dice, and be done with it. TSR era D&D was all about player skill rather than character skill we saw start in 3e.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not touching this thread, but just to clarify here: 4E was rejected by a lot of people purely for the mechanics. It had nothing to do with political, social issues, etc. And it wasn't purely about old school versus new school (it was about people who were playing 3E not transitioning to 4E because the system was too different). And D&D at the time lost nearly half its fans to Paizo (which was a much more progressive company if I remember than WOTC at that time). Fifth edition succeeded because it was able to unite the fan base again rather than divide it (and again, that was all about mechanics as well)

At the time Paizo was selling more erm mature content. The end of Savage Tide and early Pathfinder/3.5 had a lot of interesting erm R16 type content.

They times it down after they made some sort of child preying demon.

 

[Argyle King]

Does that include gaining XP for accumulating treasure? Because if so, that's a case of what's old becoming new again.

That would appear to glorify being wealthy. I'm not quite sure how that looks through the lens of what appears to be the contemporary zeitgeist behind the current re-evaluation of cultural mores.

 

[Minigiant]

Not touching this thread, but just to clarify here: 4E was rejected by a lot of people purely for the mechanics. It had nothing to do with political, social issues, etc. And it wasn't purely about old school versus new school (it was about people who were playing 3E not transitioning to 4E because the system was too different). And D&D at the time lost nearly half its fans to Paizo (which was a much more progressive company if I remember than WOTC at that time). Fifth edition succeeded because it was able to unite the fan base again rather than divide it (and again, that was all about mechanics as well)

I never said that 4e was rejected for politicial or social issues. What I said was the WOTC reverted to lore and story concepts from before 4e. However many of the updates and changes about how D&D hanndled things like race were happening in 4e. And some of that progression was lost as D&D went back to older ideas.

 

[wingsandsword]

Warhammer fans can sometimes get very angry when people mention the racist implications of the Warhammer mythos, and will often angrily insist that orcs are based on football hooligans so cannot be racist. But then you have savage orcs, whose iconography is largely based on cartoonish versions of African cultures

Games Workshop definitely has a certain toxic wing to its fandom.

There's a certain part of society that basically idolizes the Imperium of Mankind. . .they look at them and think THAT's what they want things to be like.

Vehemently anti-science, xenophobic, authoritarian, religiously fundamentalist, absurdly militaristic, lead by a cult of personality. . .they're a fascist's dream.

I do wonder how many people get involved with WH40K because the Imperium and its mindset has become something of a memetic thing in some corners of the internet.