D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[doctorbadwolf]

Ghouls are evil. In most fiction demons, devils and so on are (effectively) all evil

I really don’t understand how you can fail to understand the difference.
Ghouls are undead. They are a corpse possessed by an animated desire to feed.

Fiends are not a people, in most media. In media where two fiends can make a baby and that baby grows up and has to be raised, they generally aren’t all evil. In media where they can’t be born, they are much more likely to be all evil.

It’s a very simple difference.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

I think they should have spelled out that the alignment an culture in the book is just the default. It's there, it's just not front and center like it could be.

The default is what matters when it comes to discussing the game as an entity in itself, especially when comparing its strengths and weaknesses to other games in its design - wait, this is the racism thread, not the systems thread.

Seriously though, why are "D&D has no systemic racism issues, what are you talking about?" and "System doesn't create play expectations and constraints, I can run my Star Trek game in 5e just fine!" so similar? Are they coming from the same crowd?

And in case it wasn't obvious, I find "just homebrew it" a bad response to both, since that just amounts to ignoring the issue.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

More to the point though, you've proven my demographics concern. The issue isn't whether all, most, some, or even one group of orcs is evil, it's if all the game ever shows is the evil ones, you aren't doing anything by saying "well, some AREN'T" evil, they're just off camera. If we are really serious about this, we are going to have to treat orcs, goblins, any other sentient race with the same opportunities as elves, dwarves, and halflings. Orc towns are going to have to ask adventurers to defend their town against dwarven bandit. Goblin mages are going to ask PCs to go adventure into forgotten tombs overrun by halflings. You are going to have to make room for orc and goblin towns and kingdoms. The map or Oreth, Faerun, and such are going to have to change.

Anything else is a half-measure.

Okay. Let's do that then. Is it that hard?

 

[Oofta]

Close enough. If the drow are a stand in for a certain group of humans living on Earth, it stands to reason they can be compared to another group of humans living on Earth.

More to the point though, you've proven my demographics concern. The issue isn't whether all, most, some, or even one group of orcs is evil, it's if all the game ever shows is the evil ones, you aren't doing anything by saying "well, some AREN'T" evil, they're just off camera. If we are really serious about this, we are going to have to treat orcs, goblins, any other sentient race with the same opportunities as elves, dwarves, and halflings. Orc towns are going to have to ask adventurers to defend their town against dwarven bandit. Goblin mages are going to ask PCs to go adventure into forgotten tombs overrun by halflings. You are going to have to make room for orc and goblin towns and kingdoms. The map or Oreth, Faerun, and such are going to have to change.

Anything else is a half-measure.

I agree. If orcs are basically humans that look different, personally I see no reason to even have orcs. If all "races" have the same amount of free will then it all becomes meaningless. Might as well just have humans with more build flexibility.

I think the game loses something if you do that. It's no longer as fantastical, it's less open to simple escapist not as messy as the real world fun.

 

[Oofta]

I really don’t understand how you can fail to understand the difference.
Ghouls are undead. They are a corpse possessed by an animated desire to feed.

Fiends are not a people, in most media. In media where two fiends can make a baby and that baby grows up and has to be raised, they generally aren’t all evil. In media where they can’t be born, they are much more likely to be all evil.

It’s a very simple difference.

To me the simple difference is that orcs are not humans. You've attached a label and lore to ghouls that makes it okay to be evil. There is no difference.

But anyway, this is just going around in circles. Have a good one.

 

[Oofta]

The default is what matters when it comes to discussing the game as an entity in itself, especially when comparing its strengths and weaknesses to other games in its design - wait, this is the racism thread, not the systems thread.

Seriously though, why are "D&D has no systemic racism issues, what are you talking about?" and "System doesn't create play expectations and constraints, I can run my Star Trek game in 5e just fine!" so similar? Are they coming from the same crowd?

And in case it wasn't obvious, I find "just homebrew it" a bad response to both, since that just amounts to ignoring the issue.

It's not homebrew to change alignment. From the intro to the MM:

Alignment​

A monster’s alignment provides a clue to its disposition and how it behaves in a roleplaying or combat situation. For example, a chaotic evil monster might be difficult to reason with and might attack characters on sight, whereas a neutral monster might be willing to negotiate. See the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of the different alignments.​

​

The alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s alignment to suit the needs of your campaign. If you want a good-aligned green dragon or an evil storm giant, there’s nothing stopping you.​

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Anything else is a half-measure.

Well, no. It’s a step.

I hope you aren’t proposing the completely nonsensical notion that if we aren’t going to go “all the way” overnight, no change is worthwhile.

Because that would be laughably ridiculous of you.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To me the simple difference is that orcs are not humans. You've attached a label and lore to ghouls that makes it okay to be evil. There is no difference.

But anyway, this is just going around in circles. Have a good one.

All an orc or a ghoul is, is lore. I haven’t attached that lore, that is what a ghoul is.

You know that no one cares how you use orcs at your own table, right? It doesn’t matter. No one is sitting here saying that because the game is making orcs less default-evil, you can’t use them like you have been, or that you’re somehow wrong to do so.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

It's not homebrew to change alignment. From the intro to the MM:

​

Alignment​

A monster’s alignment provides a clue to its disposition and how it behaves in a roleplaying or combat situation. For example, a chaotic evil monster might be difficult to reason with and might attack characters on sight, whereas a neutral monster might be willing to negotiate. See the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of the different alignments.​

​

The alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s alignment to suit the needs of your campaign. If you want a good-aligned green dragon or an evil storm giant, there’s nothing stopping you.​

That's just official sanction to change the mechanics then. What if the alignment text and mechanic is garbage in the first place? Saying "the game gives you permission to change it" isn't that much stronger a defense than "you can just change it" when you're taking a critical look at the concept of alignment itself. Or any other piece of mechanics or fluff.

 

[Oofta]

All an orc or a ghoul is, is lore. I haven’t attached that lore, that is what a ghoul is.

You know that no one cares how you use orcs at your own table, right? It doesn’t matter. No one is sitting here saying that because the game is making orcs less default-evil, you can’t use them like you have been, or that you’re somehow wrong to do so.

I don't care what you do with your campaign. I do think the fact that alignment (and culture of all races for that matter) is just the default should have been clearer.

But you were the one who told me that my opinion is wrong:

Why do you always trot this nonsense out, but never engage with criticism of it?

I really don’t understand how you can fail to understand the difference.

I've always been quite clear that what I do is only for my campaign and my reasons for doing so. So why so adamant that I'm doing something wrong because I use the default?

I think it's fine if all ghouls are evil but orcs can be any alignment in your campaign. I just don't think the "justification" of why one fictional creature is evil while the other is not holds any water. Ghouls are evil in your campaign because you decided they are. Orcs are evil in my campaign because I've decided they are.

In the Fallout games ghouls are just people that have been transformed by magical radiation. Yet I don't go around telling people that having evil ghouls in their game is "nonsense".